Page 9 of 18 FirstFirst ... 7891011 ... LastLast
Results 81 to 90 of 172

Thread: New York Atheists Angry Over 'Heaven' Street Sign Honoring Sept. 11 victims

  1. #81
    Sage
    SmokeAndMirrors's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    RVA
    Last Seen
    Today @ 07:46 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Other
    Posts
    18,175

    Re: New York Atheists Angry Over 'Heaven' Street Sign Honoring Sept. 11 victims

    Quote Originally Posted by BDBoop View Post
    And now you are generalizing as well?
    After a bit of thought, yes, I am. Because this one is true. In fact, it's true of everyone. Everyone wants their beliefs respected.

    And I'm happy to do that on a legal level. But in a debate? No. You have to tell me why your beliefs deserve respect. Claiming immunity due to the fact that religion is socially safeguarded against being questioned is not a good enough reason, and that is something I hear a lot of.

    So I'll refine my concept: Most of the people I see demanding their beliefs be respected as valid within a debate when they can provide no reason why they should be are religious.

  2. #82
    Sage
    scourge99's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    The Wild West
    Last Seen
    01-27-12 @ 02:50 AM
    Lean
    Moderate
    Posts
    6,233

    Re: New York Atheists Angry Over 'Heaven' Street Sign Honoring Sept. 11 victims

    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive View Post
    there is evidence, it's just no objective.
    Such as?

    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive View Post
    although to be fair, you're qualifications for reliable evidence aren't very good considering that sound and the color green can't be verified by "anyone" either - it would have been best to stop at reliable and consistent.
    The senses of color and sound are consistent, reliable, and verifiable by others. Even the colorblind or deaf because we can devise a simple test to PROVE that a color or sound exists.

    Get a whole bunch of cards that look identical to whatever the colorblind see green as and 1 card that is actually green. On the green card we will right "green" and put it face down. Now mix all the cards up and I'll pick out the one card that has "green" written on the back without actually looking at it. I've just proven that green exists or that I'm magical.

    Similar experiments can be done for other senses.

    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive View Post
    I already understand why people don't believe in God, what are you talking about?
    There is no evidence against unicorns because a unicorn-believer's beliefs can be unfalsifiable. Similar unfalsifiable beliefs (such as certain Christian beliefs) show this same pattern.


    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive View Post
    no, you're not understanding. a holybook does not necessitate that God created the laws of nature - the existence of God as creator of the universe alone necessitates that.
    And how do you know that god is creator of the universe and exists? Could not unicorns or leprechauns and all manner of others things be claimed to exist using the exact same standard of evidence you used to determine that god exist and created the universe? E.G., god exists and created the universe because my holy book says so; unicorns exist and are invisible because a holybook says so.

    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive View Post
    If God created the universe, he created its laws and can therefore break them - no book actually says this i don't think - it's just reason. you should be able to see this.
    And if unicorns are born with magic hair that makes them undetectable then it makes sense that so few people find them. Are you starting to see that when there is no basis for falsifying a claim then ANYTHING can be presented to prop up that claim?


    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive View Post
    Right, God is the ultimate falsifiable idea, so the unicorn analogy is correct in that very limited connection.

    However, there are reasons to believe God exists and can manipulate the laws of nature
    There are no REASONS. They are only unsubstantiated ASSERTIONS and CLAIMS that are fundamentally indistinguishable from any other supernatural claim whether it be unicorns, leprechauns, gods, spirits, ghosts, auras, chakras, etc. Unicorns are presented as an example of a belief that is not contingent on the "evidence" because all data can be interpreted by the unicorn narrative. Likewise, Christians interpret all evidence in relation to their narrative. Muslims in relation to theirs, Hindu's in relation to theirs , Native Americans in relation to theirs, and so on and so forth.


    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive View Post
    It isn't falsifiable with our current technology
    And neither are unicorns or leprechauns..... and hence you are left with the following "arguments:
    1) My holy-book says so.
    2) I really honestly believe unicorns exist so you should too!
    3) My grandmother saw one when she was about to die from cancer and it saved her. Her cancer is gone! Are you calling my grandmother a liar?
    4) ..... etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive View Post
    but believers don't make it falsifiable - human beings don't have the power to make a belief unfalsifiable or not. We believe and the nature of that belief exists on its own.
    You can believe whatever you like. All i can do is point out that you believe unfalsifiable ideas based predominately on unverifiable holy book tales and personal testimony. I would stress the importance of establishing beliefs on better standards and criteria.

    It can also be pointed out that thousands of gods, spirits, demons, auras, and other supernatural claims are EQUALLY supported in the same respect as your god. It just so happens that you were born/raised into a family/country/society with a particular bias to one supernatural narrative over others.


    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive View Post
    sure, anything can answer any question, but why would i believe in a unicorn when we've scoured the earth for all animals?
    [playing unicorn advocate] Because they are undetectable unless they want you to see them. Its all right here in the unicorn-holy-book! Don't you want to know the truth? Don't you want to obtain everlasting life?

    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive
    If I ask a unicorn believer, "why can unicorns break the laws of nature and become invisible?" Their only answer is "just because".
    You suffer from a failure of imagination.
    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive View Post
    Thank you.
    Argument from incredulity/Lack of imagination

    Arguments from incredulity take the form:

    P is too incredible (or I cannot imagine how P could possibly be true); therefore P must be false.
    It is obvious that P (or I cannot imagine how P could possibly be false) therefore P must be true.

    These arguments are similar to arguments from ignorance in that they too ignore and do not properly eliminate the possibility that something can be both incredible and still be true, or appear to be obvious and yet still be false.

    unfalsifiable claims are impossible to prove wrong. That is part of the point being made.
    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive
    right and that doesn't have any effect on the possibility that God exists
    correct. It doesn't have any effect on the possibility that God, unicorns, leprechauns, spirits, ghosts, chakras, auras, etc exist. The reasonable thing to do is to withhold belief until reason and/or evidence presents itself. And we've already covered the unreliability or holy book tales and unverifiable testimony.

    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive
    and that god's possible existence rests on different foundations than unicorns.
    Never said otherwise. The unicorn analogy is only to demonstrate that by putting the god concept beyond evidence and falsification provides the ultimate paradigm of how not to think about stuff. When God is so abstracted, what is left is zero evidence, no falsification criteria, and just the narrative in which the God concept is wielded; a point which means belief in the God concept acts out just like belief in unicorns. Yet not many theists accept unicorns as anything other than fantasy.


    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive
    Also, I don't think any scientists would think asking about the cause of the universe is a nonsensical question - big bang theory is evidence of that.
    The big bang is a description of what happened after some point in time. it does not describe how everything came into existence or whether it was always there or not. That is a common misunderstanding.

    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive
    Human beings like to know where things came from and the idea that the question is nonsensical is just as detrimental to critical thought as believing blindly in religion.
    You claim that everything has a cause. Causality requires time (A causes B which causes C ...which causes Z) If there was no time before or right at the moment of the big bang then causality breaks down making your question nonsense.
    If you believe in the Supernatural then you can become a millionaire!

    Questioning or criticizing another's core beliefs is inadvertently perceived as offensive and rude.

  3. #83
    Sage
    CriticalThought's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Last Seen
    Today @ 10:17 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian
    Posts
    18,136

    Re: New York Atheists Angry Over 'Heaven' Street Sign Honoring Sept. 11 victims

    Quote Originally Posted by Erod View Post
    Atheists are funny. They've created an existence out of nothing. I don't believe in unicorns, but I didn't fashion a title for myself, nor do I practice within a group, to acknowledge that I don't believe in unicorns.
    Do over 5 billion people believe in unicorns?
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    The economy will improve under this bill. If a few people die, it will be for the betterament of this country.

  4. #84
    Cheese
    Aunt Spiker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Sasnakra
    Last Seen
    09-10-16 @ 06:10 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Moderate
    Posts
    28,433

    Re: New York Atheists Angry Over 'Heaven' Street Sign Honoring Sept. 11 victims

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Do over 5 billion people believe in unicorns?
    ad populum
    A screaming comes across the sky.
    It has happened before, but there is nothing to compare it to now.
    Pynchon - Gravity's Rainbow

  5. #85
    Hung like Einstein
    Singularity's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    San Diego
    Last Seen
    12-12-17 @ 05:47 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    1,058

    Re: New York Atheists Angry Over 'Heaven' Street Sign Honoring Sept. 11 victims

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with you this time. Maybe you're different, but I've found most atheists I've met online to be assholes when discussing or debating religion. They usually turn into mouthfoaming rabid animals, shortly after the debate begins. Don't believe me, just hang around. They're not just non-believers, they hate religion with a passion. Words like "Flat-earthers" usually pops up at least once in every debate with them. Then they'll start talking about how the founders were deists or atheists and hated God with all their souls, especially Thomas Jefferson.
    That's probably because most atheists you've met online are responding to threads like the one you created: http://www.debatepolitics.com/church...le-rights.html . From the looks of it, you don't wish to discuss religion more than you wish to blast those who don't share the same belief. After reading the first page of that thread, perhaps you may wish to change your opinion up a bit, because it doesn't look like the atheists are the guilty party here.

    I brought up that thread to illustrate a point. Most folks who have problems with atheists think that society should be a lot more Christian. It isn't enough to have "in God we trust" on our cash, or that a kid in school can pray silently. They believe that public schools should have classroom prayer led by a teacher or principal involving everyone, and science classes should teach Creationism as well as Intelligent Design (despite the fact that neither is science). Gay marriage should not be allowed because homosexuality is an abomination to many Christians, and then of course there are the religious-fueled arguments against other social issues - abortion, stem cell research, etc. When the Christian god is invoked to support a position in any of these debates, anyone who actually counters with "well, I don't believe in God" is demonized as someone who is trying to take away the rights of Christians because they are an atheist.

    Another example is this. I attend the Southern Modified NASCAR events, and they always have a racer's prayer before the National Anthem. I don't bow my head and pray, but I am respectfully silent. I had a person at one of these events tell me once to bow my head and pray with the rest of them, to which I replied with a "no thank you". Long story short, this person was pissed off enough at me to make a scene because I wasn't praying, which in turn pissed me off because she couldn't respect my choice not to pray. I'm sure in her mind I constituted someone who was warring against Christianity, when the reality of the situation is that I simply wanted to watch the race without worshipping some deity.

    My view is probably that of the typical everyday atheist. I have nothing against religion when it is used for noble purposes. When religion feeds the homeless, helps the poor, and gives people hope, it's a good thing; however, when it says who can or can't get married, labels a perfectly normal lifestyle as 'wrong', or shuts down the local strip clubs, then it's a bad thing.

  6. #86
    Dungeon Master
    Veni, vidi, dormivi!

    spud_meister's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Didjabringabeeralong
    Last Seen
    @
    Gender
    Lean
    Very Conservative
    Posts
    33,888
    Blog Entries
    8

    Re: New York Atheists Angry Over 'Heaven' Street Sign Honoring Sept. 11 victims

    Quote Originally Posted by Aunt Spiker View Post
    ad populum
    No, I think he's just pointing out atheism has a name because it is the minority belief, which is not comparable to a disbelief in unicorns.
    So follow me into the desert
    As desperate as you are
    Where the moon is glued to a picture of heaven
    And all the little pigs have God

  7. #87
    Professor

    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Last Seen
    03-23-13 @ 02:33 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    1,265

    Re: New York Atheists Angry Over 'Heaven' Street Sign Honoring Sept. 11 victims

    Quote Originally Posted by NGNM85 View Post
    Nonsense. The assertion that Jesus Christ is the son of the one true god, and any number of the propositions contained in scripture are literally true, is a scientific claim, and a horrifically bogus one, at that. There is absolutely nothing that purports to represent anything true about the real world that can be said to be 'outside' of science. That, by definition, is science.



    Probably because they aren't neurologists, or are unwilling to submit to blood tests and an fMRI. However, using these tools, it would, indeed, be possible to verify this contention.



    It's not an issue of 'choice', any more than I 'choose' to 'believe' in gravity.



    No, it isn't. If one is truly scientifically minded, Atheism is the only option, everything else is irrational.



    Ok, here's the root of the problem; you are suffering from a very poor understanding of science.

    Like the Dude said; 'Yeah, well, y'know, that's just, like, your opinion, man.' Except that isn't it at all. There are a number of fundamental problems with this.

    You're talking as if scripture and science were on equal footing; they aren't even close. Scientists base conclusions on mountains of data and physical evidence, and they tend to be conservative. Scripture makes very extreme and completely unsubstantiated claims, which we are supposed to accept, wholeheartedly, at face value.

    You're assertion that scientists have been wrong in the past, and will probably be wrong again in the future, is, at it's face, a banal and obvious truism. However, what you are really doing is expressing a deeper skepticism about science as a project, or, more fundamentally, even the concept of truth, itself. This is bogus for a number of reasons. First and foremost, science is really unique in that it gets better over time, it continually gives us better tools and better answers, to make better tools to get even better answers. Also, science has progressed substantially from the dark ages. We are within arm's reach of a unified theory of physics which explains everything in the universe,; from subatomic particles, to supermassive black holes, etc. Medicine, biology, you name it, we're running out of mysteries. The list of questions science can't, or hasn't, answer(ed) is getting shorter by the day. The prospect that we're going to find out we're horribly mistaken about some fundamental truth, like consciousness exists in the brain, (I think we're going to disagree on that one.) or gravity is a force exerted by bodies proportional to their mass, etc., that this will turn out to be wrong, at this stage in the game, is ****ing preposterous.

    True to form, you are making very authoritative statements about Astrophysics that you are completely unqualified to make. Rather than making bold, unsubstantiated assertions, I recommend you check yourself out a textbook, or simply ask a scientist, who, I'm sure, would be happy to explain this to you. How can we know, definitively, what happened a billion years ago? For one thing, we can measure Cosmic Microwave Background Radiation with satellites like WMAP, which gives us a picture of the universe over 12 billion years ago, roughly 400,000 years after the Big Bang. There are also a number of other techniques and tools, which one could easily find out about if one was inclined to look. The proposed Laser Interferometer Satellite AKA LISA, proposed for 2018/2020, which measures gravity waves, will be far more accurate, giving us a picture of the universe within one trillionth of a second after the Big Bang.



    No, it isn't. See above.

    Science as you say is always evolving, some things that were scientific fact 50 years ago, have proven to be nothing but fantasy, and 50 years from now, things that are deemed as scientific fact today will again be proven to be fantasy. To even suggest, as you seem to be doing, that we have reached the pinnacle of scientific fact is absurd . unless you believe yourself to be a seer into our future.

    I'm sorry you took it that I was comparing science and religion to be on the same footing, I certainly was not doing any such thing. I even stated that one's belief in God could not be proven, it is ones belief .it's faith that God..... or a supreme being exists.

    You're contention that love can be proven with a blood test or an MRI is just laughable, it might prove that you are related but nothing more, love is a feeling, nothing more if as you seem to think it can be proven, then perhaps that needs to be done before anyone can get married, or have children after all wouldn't that science solve the divorce rate and single parents raising kids ??

    You seem to feel the need to put down anyone that doesn't conform to your way of thinking, maybe to make yourself feel important and better educated them others and that too is fine .. whatever you need to do to make yourself feel good.

    Unlike you I am not asking anyone to believe the way I do, even th unicorn guy if he wants to believe in unicorns that is his choice .most people believe in something that has yet to be proven a classic example is intelligent life ( above ours) on another planet.

    Then there is the simple way of looking at things .. if you are right and there is no supreme being, those of us that held that belief have lost nothing .. we certainly don't have to worry about someone like you coming to us after death and saying see I told you so.

  8. #88
    Banned
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Golden City of the Risen Dead
    Last Seen
    10-05-12 @ 12:25 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Left
    Posts
    4,310

    Re: New York Atheists Angry Over 'Heaven' Street Sign Honoring Sept. 11 victims

    Quote Originally Posted by Erod View Post
    New York Atheists Angry Over 'Heaven' Street Sign Honoring Sept. 11 Victims - FoxNews.com



    Ah, yes, here's your American atheist in full form.

    Question: If you truly believe there is no such thing as God, and therefore our lives and deaths don't really mean anything, why do you care? Why is this such a big deal? Is this not like scolding people for watching vampire movies, or children for watching Barney?

    Or is it......you crave worth and attention and must be acknowledged no matter what.

    Atheists are funny. They've created an existence out of nothing. I don't believe in unicorns, but I didn't fashion a title for myself, nor do I practice within a group, to acknowledge that I don't believe in unicorns.
    Unfortunately, atheists like this give us all a bad name, and inadvertently give virulent anti-atheists more fuel to stoke their fires.

    These people don't speak for the majority of atheists.

    I'll also assume Erod doesn't speak for most religious folk...

  9. #89
    Tavern Bartender
    Constitutionalist
    American's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Virginia
    Last Seen
    12-15-17 @ 10:49 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    76,323

    Re: New York Atheists Angry Over 'Heaven' Street Sign Honoring Sept. 11 victims

    Quote Originally Posted by Singularity View Post
    That's probably because most atheists you've met online are responding to threads like the one you created: http://www.debatepolitics.com/church...le-rights.html . From the looks of it, you don't wish to discuss religion more than you wish to blast those who don't share the same belief. After reading the first page of that thread, perhaps you may wish to change your opinion up a bit, because it doesn't look like the atheists are the guilty party here.

    I brought up that thread to illustrate a point. Most folks who have problems with atheists think that society should be a lot more Christian. It isn't enough to have "in God we trust" on our cash, or that a kid in school can pray silently. They believe that public schools should have classroom prayer led by a teacher or principal involving everyone, and science classes should teach Creationism as well as Intelligent Design (despite the fact that neither is science). Gay marriage should not be allowed because homosexuality is an abomination to many Christians, and then of course there are the religious-fueled arguments against other social issues - abortion, stem cell research, etc. When the Christian god is invoked to support a position in any of these debates, anyone who actually counters with "well, I don't believe in God" is demonized as someone who is trying to take away the rights of Christians because they are an atheist.

    Another example is this. I attend the Southern Modified NASCAR events, and they always have a racer's prayer before the National Anthem. I don't bow my head and pray, but I am respectfully silent. I had a person at one of these events tell me once to bow my head and pray with the rest of them, to which I replied with a "no thank you". Long story short, this person was pissed off enough at me to make a scene because I wasn't praying, which in turn pissed me off because she couldn't respect my choice not to pray. I'm sure in her mind I constituted someone who was warring against Christianity, when the reality of the situation is that I simply wanted to watch the race without worshipping some deity.

    My view is probably that of the typical everyday atheist. I have nothing against religion when it is used for noble purposes. When religion feeds the homeless, helps the poor, and gives people hope, it's a good thing; however, when it says who can or can't get married, labels a perfectly normal lifestyle as 'wrong', or shuts down the local strip clubs, then it's a bad thing.
    TOTAL FAIL, the thread you referenced has nothing to do with gay marriage, forcing prayer in classrooms or at NASCAR events. Most people in that thread don't even understand the premise on which the title is based. But we're not going to derail this thread with that one here, are we? You ascersion in the first sentence of your second paragraph has no support.
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
    "Fly-over" country voted, and The Donald is now POTUS.

  10. #90
    Global Moderator
    Moderator

    Zyphlin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    NoMoAuchie
    Last Seen
    @
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    47,998

    Re: New York Atheists Angry Over 'Heaven' Street Sign Honoring Sept. 11 victims

    As with all small groups, the idiot minority (of an already small minority) that is most vocal is the image that said group is going to have to the larger population. And idiot jackasses like these are what ends up being the example of "athiests" to the average person.

    They shouldn't take down the sign, and there's nothing unconstitutional about it.

Page 9 of 18 FirstFirst ... 7891011 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •