Page 5 of 18 FirstFirst ... 3456715 ... LastLast
Results 41 to 50 of 172

Thread: New York Atheists Angry Over 'Heaven' Street Sign Honoring Sept. 11 victims

  1. #41
    Sage
    Khayembii Communique's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Milwaukee, WI
    Last Seen
    Today @ 05:15 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    7,885

    Re: New York Atheists Angry Over 'Heaven' Street Sign Honoring Sept. 11 victims

    Anti-theism is somewhat silly and pointless. I think this is a great opportunity to discuss the development of 9/11 as myth in the nationalist ideology and its association with religion as a general tool of subordination to the nationalist cause.

    They went the other way and demanded a street sign get taken down. Go figure.
    "I do not claim that every incident in the history of empire can be explained in directly economic terms. Economic interests are filtered through a political process, policies are implemented by a complex state apparatus, and the whole system generates its own momentum."

  2. #42
    Sage

    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Last Seen
    11-17-17 @ 12:48 PM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    19,610

    Re: New York Atheists Angry Over 'Heaven' Street Sign Honoring Sept. 11 victims

    Quote Originally Posted by scourge99 View Post
    1. Unicorns are a simple and telling way of point out the fact that there is no evidence for either Unicorns or God.
    No objective physical evidence, correct. We agree.

    2. The lack of evidence for unicorns is systematic and due to the kind of thinking that goes along with believing in unicorns. There is no evidence against unicorns because the believer does not allow them to be falsified.
    No. "Believers" aren't in control of evidence. There isn't any evidence against divinity because there isn't any evidence against it - it's pretty simple.

    Unicorns can always make themselves invisible or trick our scientific devices or if they so wish never be caught or seen or heard. Only when they wish do we get to meet them. The point being made is that God is the ultimate unicorns. Belief in unicorns can be ever put beyond falsification if the believer is so determined. Belief in unicorns is not contingent on the "evidence" because all data can be interpreted within the unicorns narrative. The point is that another belief organized in like fashion is as meaningful as believing in unicorns.
    The very belief in God necessitates that God has control over the laws of nature in the same way human beings have control over the laws of society. If God exists, He can, in fact, get around the very laws that we consider impenetrable and this would be no more a trick than it's a trick for a human being to jaywalk or add an amendment to the Constitution. And again, believers cannot make their belief falsifiable (creationists do this - but again, the God being able to break his own laws thing keeps them nice and safe to a certain extent...even though I side-eye them when they hand me pamphlets).

    The problem with unicorns vs. Gods in your analogy is that there is no basis for assuming unicorns exist. Unicorns don't answer a question and their "powers" don't come from any use of reason. If I ask a unicorn believer, "why can unicorns break the laws of nature and become invisible?" Their only answer is "just because". If I ask a theist the same question about God, the answer is "because he made them."

    I want to criticize all theists not just Christians and I want to be able say with a neat comparison or analogy that:

    1/ there is zero evidence for your belief or at least no more evidence than there is for X (X is something like unicorns that does not insult). Zero objective physical evidence, yes.
    2/ You will not allow your belief to be falsified Sure I will - just do it and I'll be waiting.
    3/ that your belief system is just like any non falsifiable cultural narrative (non religious ones too).except that everything has a cause and maybe the universe does too, but nothing requires a unicorn or even a Jesus rising from the dead
    Some people have moved their religious belief beyond the issue raised here. It would be inappropriate to use the unicorn argument against folk that: oh i think this is me

    1/ do not believe in miracles or supernatural intervention.
    2/ do not believe some fact or other is evidence of God when never allowing that belief to be falsified.

    For other folk the comparison is just.
    I don't know if miracles or supernatural intervention have happened. I'm totally fine with someone proving that God does not exist, but that seems pretty impossible.

    All of that said, I appreciate that your post was a reasoned out and respectful explanation rather that just "you're stupid, you believe in unicorns" because the latter is always really annoying to deal with just like "you're a sinner, you're going to hell."
    Last edited by ThePlayDrive; 06-21-11 at 09:15 PM. Reason: words

  3. #43
    Sage

    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Last Seen
    11-17-17 @ 12:48 PM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    19,610

    Re: New York Atheists Angry Over 'Heaven' Street Sign Honoring Sept. 11 victims

    Quote Originally Posted by MistressNomad View Post
    So you've asserted - twice now - with no explaination. I'll assume you simply have no response to what I said.
    Why do you always say I have no response right after I respond? You're the only person I have this problem with in every interaction.

    It's not rocket science to understand how the hypothesis of God comes from observation and reason; I thought it would be self-explanatory. Look up the definition of observation, then look up the definition of reason and come back. Hint: one of the observations is that everything has a cause.

  4. #44
    Sage
    SheWolf's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Last Seen
    Today @ 02:19 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Other
    Posts
    24,500

    Re: New York Atheists Angry Over 'Heaven' Street Sign Honoring Sept. 11 victims

    Quote Originally Posted by Erod View Post
    New York Atheists Angry Over 'Heaven' Street Sign Honoring Sept. 11 Victims - FoxNews.com



    Ah, yes, here's your American atheist in full form.

    Question: If you truly believe there is no such thing as God, and therefore our lives and deaths don't really mean anything, why do you care? Why is this such a big deal? Is this not like scolding people for watching vampire movies, or children for watching Barney?

    Or is it......you crave worth and attention and must be acknowledged no matter what.

    Atheists are funny. They've created an existence out of nothing. I don't believe in unicorns, but I didn't fashion a title for myself, nor do I practice within a group, to acknowledge that I don't believe in unicorns.
    My only question is, who is the sign for? Only the firefighters who died, and where all of them Christian because if not, that sign excludes the non Christians. That's the only thing I see potentially offensive about it...

  5. #45
    Guru
    Councilman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Riverside, County, CA.
    Last Seen
    11-04-11 @ 10:16 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    4,454
    Blog Entries
    10

    Re: New York Atheists Angry Over 'Heaven' Street Sign Honoring Sept. 11 victims

    There is nothing in the Constitution that says there is any " separation of church and state."

    Second what do Atheists fear?

    They fight so hard against something they claim doesn't exist.

    That is kind of nuts isn't it.

  6. #46
    Sage
    SmokeAndMirrors's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    RVA
    Last Seen
    Today @ 06:18 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Other
    Posts
    18,147

    Re: New York Atheists Angry Over 'Heaven' Street Sign Honoring Sept. 11 victims

    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive View Post
    Why do you always say I have no response right after I respond? You're the only person I have this problem with in every interaction.

    It's not rocket science to understand how the hypothesis of God comes from observation and reason; I thought it would be self-explanatory. Look up the definition of observation, then look up the definition of reason and come back. Hint: one of the observations is that everything has a cause.
    All you did was repeat, nearly word-for-word, your original claim. What else am I to think? Perhaps you have this problem with me because unlike most people here, I refuse to simply repeat myself in response to you repeating yourself.

    I explained why I think that's debatable, if not outright wrong. Simply balking, "pfft, well, it should be self-explanatory" doesn't make your case. Your feathers are very pretty, but your preening does not an argument make.
    Last edited by SmokeAndMirrors; 06-21-11 at 09:33 PM.

  7. #47
    Sage

    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Last Seen
    11-17-17 @ 12:48 PM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    19,610

    Re: New York Atheists Angry Over 'Heaven' Street Sign Honoring Sept. 11 victims

    Quote Originally Posted by MistressNomad View Post
    All you did was repeat, nearly word-for-word, your original claim. What else am I to think? Perhaps you have this problem with me because unlike most people here, I refuse to simply repeat myself in response to you repeating yourself.

    I explained to why I think that's debatable, if not outright wrong. Simply balking, "pfft, well, it should be self-explanatory" doesn't make your case. Your feathers are very pretty, but your preening does not an argument make.
    Okay, just put me on ignore. I can't with this anymore.

  8. #48
    Sage
    scourge99's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    The Wild West
    Last Seen
    01-27-12 @ 02:50 AM
    Lean
    Moderate
    Posts
    6,233

    Re: New York Atheists Angry Over 'Heaven' Street Sign Honoring Sept. 11 victims

    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive View Post
    No objective physical evidence, correct.
    is there some other type of evidence besides physical evidence that can be shown as reliable, consistent, and is verifiable by anyone?

    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive View Post
    There isn't any evidence against divinity because there isn't any evidence against it - it's pretty simple.
    Apply that same logic to unicorns, leprechauns, zeus, etc. When you understand that you will understand why others do not believe in your god.

    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive View Post
    The very belief in God necessitates that God has control over the laws of nature in the same way human beings have control over the laws of society.
    so says a holybook. Why is it any different if there was a holy unicorn book or a leprechaun-prophet providing an explanation about why unicorns and leprechauns can do what they do?

    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive View Post
    He can, in fact, get around the very laws that we consider impenetrable and this would be no more a trick than it's a trick for a human being to jaywalk or add an amendment to the Constitution.
    Then the unicorn analogy is correct. The point being made is that God is the ultimate unfalsifiable idea. Belief in unicorns (like god) are beyond falsification. Belief in unicorns is not contingent on the "evidence" because all data can be interpreted within the unicorn/god/leprechaun narrative (E.G., the bible)

    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive View Post
    And again, believers cannot make their belief falsifiable.
    Propose a falsifiable test for your god if you claim it is falsifiable. Otherwise concede the point that claims about god are unfalsifiable.


    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive View Post
    Unicorns don't answer a question
    unicorns, leprechauns, and greek gods, and the christian god can be fashioned to answer just about any question. That is the two-faced nature of unfalsifiable claims!! They can explain everything but can't be shown as correct.

    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive View Post
    If I ask a unicorn believer, "why can unicorns break the laws of nature and become invisible?" Their only answer is "just because".
    You suffer from a failure of imagination.


    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive View Post
    I'm totally fine with someone proving that God does not exist, but that seems pretty impossible.
    unfalsifiable claims are impossible to prove wrong. That is part of the point being made.

    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive View Post
    everything has a cause and maybe the universe does too,
    And maybe it doesn't and maybe asking whether the universe has a cause is a nonsensical question like "what is north of the north pole?"
    If you believe in the Supernatural then you can become a millionaire!

    Questioning or criticizing another's core beliefs is inadvertently perceived as offensive and rude.

  9. #49
    Sage
    Dittohead not!'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    The Golden State
    Last Seen
    Today @ 01:10 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian
    Posts
    41,540

    Re: New York Atheists Angry Over 'Heaven' Street Sign Honoring Sept. 11 victims

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    I have an idea: How about the Bible beaters agree to stop pissin'-n-moanin' about the absence of, "under God", in the Pledge of Alegiance and the atheists stop pissin'-n-moanin' about every little insignificant reference to religion?

    Whatcha' think?

    Naw, that would make too much ****ing sense.
    You think that Bible beaters and adamant atheists could actually act rationally?

    Now, that would be a first!
    "Donald Trump is a phony, a fraud... [he's] playing the American public for suckers." Mitt Romney

  10. #50
    Sage

    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Last Seen
    11-17-17 @ 12:48 PM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    19,610

    Re: New York Atheists Angry Over 'Heaven' Street Sign Honoring Sept. 11 victims

    Quote Originally Posted by scourge99 View Post
    is there some other type of evidence besides physical evidence that can be shown as reliable, consistent, and is verifiable by anyone?
    no - which is why i said objective physical evidence - we don't disagree on this point so i'm not sure why you're pushing it. but there is evidence, it's just no objective. although to be fair, you're qualifications for reliable evidence aren't very good considering that sound and the color green can't be verified by "anyone" either - it would have been best to stop at reliable and consistent.

    Apply that same logic to unicorns, leprechauns, zeus, etc. When you understand that you will understand why others do not believe in your god.
    I already understand why people don't believe in God, what are you talking about?

    so says a holybook. Why is it any different if there was a holy unicorn book or a leprechaun-prophet providing an explanation about why unicorns and leprechauns can do what they do?
    no, you're not understanding. a holybook does not necessitate that God created the laws of nature - the existence of God as creator of the universe alone necessitates that. If God created the universe, he created its laws and can therefore break them - no book actually says this i don't think - it's just reason. you should be able to see this.

    Then the unicorn analogy is correct. The point being made is that God is the ultimate unfalsifiable idea. Belief in unicorns (like god) are beyond falsification. Belief in unicorns is not contingent on the "evidence" because all data can be interpreted within the unicorn/god/leprechaun narrative (E.G., the bible)
    Right, God is the ultimate falsifiable idea, so the unicorn analogy is correct in that very limited connection. However, there are reasons to believe God exists and can manipulate the laws of nature, there aren't any reasons to believe unicorns exist.

    Propose a falsifiable test for your god if you claim it is falsifiable. Otherwise concede the point that claims about god are unfalsifiable.
    It isn't falsifiable with our current technology, but believers don't make it falsifiable - human beings don't have the power to make a belief unfalsifiable or not. We believe and the nature of that belief exists on its own.

    unicorns, leprechauns, and greek gods, and the christian god can be fashioned to answer just about any question. That is the two-faced nature of unfalsifiable claims!! They can explain everything but can't be shown as correct.
    sure, anything can answer any question, but why would i believe in a unicorn when we've scoured the earth for all animals?

    You suffer from a failure of imagination.
    Thank you.

    unfalsifiable claims are impossible to prove wrong. That is part of the point being made.
    right and that doesn't have any effect on the possibility that God exists and that His possible existence rests on different foundations than unicorns.

    And maybe it doesn't and maybe asking whether the universe has a cause is a nonsensical question like "what is north of the north pole?"
    Sure, maybe it doesn't. Theists believe in God - the idea that he doesn't exist isn't something we consider impossible. Also, I don't think any scientists would think asking about the cause of the universe is a nonsensical question - big bang theory is evidence of that. Human beings like to know where things came from and the idea that the question is nonsensical is just as detrimental to critical thought as believing blindly in religion.
    Last edited by ThePlayDrive; 06-21-11 at 10:30 PM.

Page 5 of 18 FirstFirst ... 3456715 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •