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Thread: New York Atheists Angry Over 'Heaven' Street Sign Honoring Sept. 11 victims

  1. #21
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    Re: New York Atheists Angry Over 'Heaven' Street Sign Honoring Sept. 11 victims

    Quote Originally Posted by Erod View Post
    Ah, yes, here's your American atheist in full form.
    Despite what you may think, Atheists are not a United front, and there is no such thing as a specifically 'American' Atheism.

    Quote Originally Posted by Erod View Post
    Question: If you truly believe there is no such thing as God,
    No self-respecting Atheist will definitively claim that there is no god, merely that his/her/it's/their proponants haven't even come close to making their prima facie case.

    Quote Originally Posted by Erod View Post
    and therefore our lives and deaths don't really mean anything,
    This is a total non-sequitor.

    Quote Originally Posted by Erod View Post
    why do you care? Why is this such a big deal? Is this not like scolding people for watching vampire movies, or children for watching Barney?

    Or is it......you crave worth and attention and must be acknowledged no matter what.
    Well, the major issue is, thankfully, in the United States, we have a constitution which creates a barrier between the church and the state, which is one of the most progressive, and modern aspects of the American system. I happen to think it's a marvelous idea. However, this part of our constitution is constantly under assault by religious dogmatists.

    Quote Originally Posted by Erod View Post
    Atheists are funny. They've created an existence out of nothing. I don't believe in unicorns, but I didn't fashion a title for myself, nor do I practice within a group, to acknowledge that I don't believe in unicorns.
    On this point I'm almost entirely agreed. To proclaim oneself an Athiest is like proclaiming oneself to be a non-Astrolager. This distinction would cease to have any value, were it not that (Unfortunately.) those who do not believe in insane, and unsubstantiated beliefs about the nature of the universe, etc., are in the minority.
    Economic Left/Right: -7.25, Authoritarian/Libertarian:-7.13
    All over the place, from the popular culture to the propaganda system, there is constant pressure to make people feel that they are helpless, that the only role they can have is to ratify decisions and to consume. -Noam Chomsky

  2. #22
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    Re: New York Atheists Angry Over 'Heaven' Street Sign Honoring Sept. 11 victims

    Quote Originally Posted by NGNM85 View Post


    No self-respecting Atheist will definitively claim that there is no god, merely that his/her/it's/their proponants haven't even come close to making their prima facie case.
    Seeing how a lot of atheist say God is a fairy tale the bible is nothing more than a Harry Potter book then I am pretty sure they have no problem claiming God is not real.
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

    Cicero Marcus Tullius

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    Re: New York Atheists Angry Over 'Heaven' Street Sign Honoring Sept. 11 victims

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    Seeing how a lot of atheist say God is a fairy tale the bible is nothing more than a Harry Potter book then I am pretty sure they have no problem claiming God is not real.
    I can't disprove the existence of unicorns. I cannot tell you with 100% certainty that unicorns do not exist. Does that make them any less of a fairytale? Does that mean I should seriously consider the existence of unicorns? Does the fact that there is no evidence for or against their existence, and that I can never 100% prove they do not exist make believing in unicorns a valid theory worthy of my respect?
    Last edited by SmokeAndMirrors; 06-21-11 at 08:02 PM.

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    Re: New York Atheists Angry Over 'Heaven' Street Sign Honoring Sept. 11 victims

    Is this a violation of church and state separation? Yes, because it fails the lemon test.

    Is it a "big deal". No.

    Imagine if the sign read "21 virgin street" or "there is no heaven alley". We'd see Christians come out of the woodwork to complain.

    Quote Originally Posted by Erod View Post
    Question: If you truly believe there is no such thing as God, and therefore our lives and deaths don't really mean anything...
    my life has plenty of meaning. No belief in a god is required to find meaning in your life.

    Quote Originally Posted by Erod View Post
    Why is this such a big deal?
    Its a violation of church and state separation, granted a minor one.

    Would you be bothered if the US government gave $100 to the Mormon church every year as a gift? Obviously its not a big deal but is it worth complaining over if you feel so inclined?

    Quote Originally Posted by Erod View Post
    I don't believe in unicorns, but I didn't fashion a title for myself, nor do I practice within a group, to acknowledge that I don't believe in unicorns.
    If 80% of the population you lived in believed in unicorns then you probably would identify with people who share your disbelief in unicorns.
    If you believe in the Supernatural then you can become a millionaire!

    Questioning or criticizing another's core beliefs is inadvertently perceived as offensive and rude.

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    Re: New York Atheists Angry Over 'Heaven' Street Sign Honoring Sept. 11 victims

    Quote Originally Posted by MistressNomad View Post
    Well, it is.

    I can't disprove the existence of unicorns. I cannot tell you with 100% certainty that unicorns do not exist. Does that make them any less of a fairytale? Does that mean I should seriously consider the existence of unicorns? Does the fact that there is no evidence for or against their existence, and that I can never 100% prove they do not exist make believing in unicorns a valid theory worthy of my respect?
    1. I'm a theist and I don't care if you respect me, so you can step down from your little pedestal.
    2. Nobody posits that unicorns are an explanation for the beginning of the universe so comparing them to ideas of God is nonsensical.

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    Re: New York Atheists Angry Over 'Heaven' Street Sign Honoring Sept. 11 victims

    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive View Post
    1. I'm a theist and I don't care if you respect me, so you can step down from your little pedestal.
    2. Nobody posits that unicorns are an explanation for the beginning of the universe so comparing them to ideas of God is nonsensical.
    You don't have to. Just sayin'. Religious people continually demand their beliefs be respected. In the grander scale of people having the right to practice them, sure. In a discussion or as a theory, no.

    It doesn't matter what the purpose of the fairytale is. It's still a fairytale. What would you call the Greek gods? Are they a religion or a mythology? We call it "mythology" because no one practices it anymore. Dead religions become mythology. Does calling it "Greek mythology" mean the believers in Zeus were any less fervant? They sacrificed living beings over their gods. Surely they weren't.

    What makes your god special? Why is yours not a mythology but Zeus is?
    Last edited by SmokeAndMirrors; 06-21-11 at 08:09 PM.

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    Re: New York Atheists Angry Over 'Heaven' Street Sign Honoring Sept. 11 victims

    Quote Originally Posted by MistressNomad View Post
    You don't have to. Just sayin'. Religious people continually demand their beliefs be respected. In the grander scale of people having the right to practice them, sure. In a discussion or as a theory, no.

    It doesn't matter what the purpose of the fairytale is. It's still a fairytale. What would you call the Greek gods? Are they a religion or a mythology? We call it "mythology" because no one practices it anymore. Dead religions become mythology. Does calling it "Greek mythology" mean the believers in Zeus were any less fervant? They sacrificed living beings over their gods. Surely they weren't.

    What makes your god special? Why is yours not a mythology but Zeus is?
    I'm straying a little bit here but there still is a small group that worships the Greek Gods and Goddesses known as the Ellinais. Up until recently worshiping the Greek Gods and Goddesses was illegal in Greece.

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    Re: New York Atheists Angry Over 'Heaven' Street Sign Honoring Sept. 11 victims

    Quote Originally Posted by MistressNomad View Post
    You don't have to. Just sayin'. Religious people continually demand their beliefs be respected. In the grander scale of people having the right to practice them, sure. In a discussion or as a theory, no.

    It doesn't matter what the purpose of the fairytale is. It's still a fairytale. What would you call the Greek gods? Are they a religion or a mythology? We call it "mythology" because no one practices it anymore. Dead religions become mythology. Does calling it "Greek mythology" mean the believers in Zeus were any less fervant? They sacrificed living beings over their gods. Surely they weren't.

    What makes your god special? Why is yours not a mythology by Zeus is?
    My god isn't "special". The Greek gods were explanations for the origins of the universe just like whatever other gods.

    And to say that the "purpose" doesn't matter is ridiculous - that's why people investigate biblical claims and not claims of unicorns existing.

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    Re: New York Atheists Angry Over 'Heaven' Street Sign Honoring Sept. 11 victims

    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive View Post
    My god isn't "special". The Greek gods were explanations for the origins of the universe just like whatever other gods.

    And to say that the "purpose" doesn't matter is ridiculous - that's why people investigate biblical claims and not claims of unicorns existing.
    It doesn't, to whether or not it deserves respect or has truth. The genesis of both concepts is the same.

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    Re: New York Atheists Angry Over 'Heaven' Street Sign Honoring Sept. 11 victims

    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post
    Their belief is that there can be no religious impact in public action, in any shape, fashion or form. They also believe in the false belief that there is a separation of Church and State.
    I love it when people tell other people what they believe, and to top it off, make beautiful, blanket generalizations. This post is just, muah! perfect!
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
    - Colonel Paul Yingling

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