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US troops coming home? Obama to say on Wednesday

Re: President Obama To Announce Details of Afghanistan Strategy On Wednesday

I hate to tell you....replacing the Afghan culture with something else is simply NOT achievable. This continued task would take a couple of generations and thousands of deaths and a tons of money.

fortunately that's A) incorrect (culture can change quite rapidly in response to incentives and technological and political development) and B) not what we are trying to do. we are mostly trying to replace their system of government with an emphasis on their security forces.
 
Re: President Obama To Announce Details of Afghanistan Strategy On Wednesday

fortunately that's A) incorrect (culture can change quite rapidly in response to incentives and technological and political development) and B) not what we are trying to do. we are mostly trying to replace their system of government with an emphasis on their security forces.

Culturally and historically, the Afghan tribes will fight among themselves until they have a foreign enemy against which they will fight. Very similar to fighting among family members, but unity against an outsider.

Unfortunately, among large numbers of the people we are seen not as liberators any longer, but as occupiers. In my opinion, this is due largely to the corruption and excesses of the Afghan government, Afghan army and the police

We need friendly acquaintances, we don't need insignificant allies/buddies that we need to prop up, help with security, etc. Especially with Muslim countries, we shouldn't be in the business of nation building. Their culture is too foreign. Not that we can't understand it, its just that it is foreign to our way of doing things and unless you are willing to destroy that culture and rebuild it in our image, trying to graft on our way of doing things just hasn't been proven to work...

From an economic/commercial standpoint, A-stan is located in one of the world's many assholes. They have no resources to speak of. They don't have agriculture. They don't have industry. They don't have any skills or knowledge that is of value to anyone else in the world. And they are land locked, which means everything they want to ship out and everything coming in has to pass through the hands of others.

Opium??? .....since it has to be smuggled where ever it goes, you can't really consider it as a basis for a viable, growing national economy and middle class.

The cold, hard fact is, not everyone is suited for a democratically based system of government. It is not compatible with their eons old tribal traditions, their lack of education, etc. Sure, there are plenty of people in Afghanistan, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, etc. who have some education and want to see their people progress beyond a tribal stage and become an actual nation state that operates under a rule of law that applies to everyone. But the reality is, they are opposed by just as many people who will fight to stay where they are (and keep/get the power they want) and the vast majority of the population who are sheep. Just like here.
 
Re: President Obama To Announce Details of Afghanistan Strategy On Wednesday

And he was right. I know nuance isn't liked by many who support imperialistic efforts, but nuance is required.

So saying one thing during a campaign and then another after winning is now called nuance? Nuance is what makes the roses grow.

"Afghanstan deserved more attention than Iraq. Bush dropped the ball going on the snipe hunt in Iraq, So, when Obama said in 2008 that the focus needed to be there, he was right, and I ageed. Obama was wrong later when he went with the surge and continued nation building. You may not understand this, but there are rarely only two options. The better focus would have been to simply keep viglent on those issues that concern us, like training camps and threats, leavng Afghanistan to the Afghan people.

Then that could have been done much earlier and Obama could have been honest about it. But in any case Bush's Iraq seems to have don better than Obama's Afghanistan.
 
Re: President Obama To Announce Details of Afghanistan Strategy On Wednesday

Then that could have been done much earlier and Obama could have been honest about it. But in any case Bush's Iraq seems to have don better than Obama's Afghanistan.

We completely pull out of Iraq....Iraq falls. Propping up this people with money, arms, etc serves no useful purpose in the long run
 
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Re: President Obama To Announce Details of Afghanistan Strategy On Wednesday

We completely pull out of Iraq....Iraq falls. Propping up this people with money, arms, etc serves no useful purpose in the long run

That was the same school of thought in 1918.
 
Re: President Obama To Announce Details of Afghanistan Strategy On Wednesday

That was the same school of thought in 1918.

If anyone thinks, the US can afford to do what was done at the end of WWII, economically and in terms of worldwide political capital, I think I have some swamp land in the Colombo-Panamanian border to sell ya

I believe, as of this April, its waht $6.2/6.5 billion per month for ops in A-stan?? That's a lot of dough for a ****hole like A-stan...especially when your own country is in a financial mess
 
Re: President Obama To Announce Details of Afghanistan Strategy On Wednesday

If anyone thinks, the US can afford to do what was done at the end of WWII, economically and in terms of worldwide political capital, I think I have some swamp land in the Colombo-Panamanian border to sell ya

I believe, as of this April, its waht $6.2/6.5 billion per month for ops in A-stan?? That's a lot of dough for a ****hole like A-stan...especially when your own country is in a financial mess

We can do it now, or we can do it again in ten years and in ten years, it will be twice the price.
 
Re: President Obama To Announce Details of Afghanistan Strategy On Wednesday

We can do it now, or we can do it again in ten years and in ten years, it will be twice the price.

Well, I believe treating or viewing the whole of A-stan as a homogeneous group was a potentially fatal mistake or flaw

I'm sorry...there's reality, then there is fantasy. Trying to restructure a culture borders on the ridiculous.

The fact is once the US leaves, Karzai will cease to exist, and it will all go to a **** fest real quick.
 
Re: President Obama To Announce Details of Afghanistan Strategy On Wednesday

We completely pull out of Iraq....Iraq falls. Propping up this people with money, arms, etc serves no useful purpose in the long run

Why not? We did that in Europe and it turned out all right.

At least over the short term.

Japan might be a better example.
 
Re: President Obama To Announce Details of Afghanistan Strategy On Wednesday

Well, I believe treating or viewing the whole of A-stan as a homogeneous group was a potentially fatal mistake or flaw

I'm sorry...there's reality, then there is fantasy. Trying to restructure a culture borders on the ridiculous.

The fact is once the US leaves, Karzai will cease to exist, and it will all go to a **** fest real quick.

I'm not going to argue in favor of the strategy used in Afghanistan, but you can put money on us going back in a few years.
 
Re: President Obama To Announce Details of Afghanistan Strategy On Wednesday

I'm not going to argue in favor of the strategy used in Afghanistan, but you can put money on us going back in a few years.

Fair enough, but remember, we went into A-stan to get AQ and we have done that in spades
 
Re: President Obama To Announce Details of Afghanistan Strategy On Wednesday

I'm not going to argue in favor of the strategy used in Afghanistan, but you can put money on us going back in a few years.

That would be fine if war was taken seriously.

The idea is to defeat them to the point where any thought of any further aggression would be anathema.

Think Germany (the second time around) and Japan. Very peaceful people now.
 
Re: President Obama To Announce Details of Afghanistan Strategy On Wednesday

Fair enough, but remember, we went into A-stan to get AQ and we have done that in spades

We spanked them well enough, but we didn't destroy their will to wage war against us.
 
Re: President Obama To Announce Details of Afghanistan Strategy On Wednesday

So saying one thing during a campaign and then another after winning is now called nuance? Nuance is what makes the roses grow.



Then that could have been done much earlier and Obama could have been honest about it. But in any case Bush's Iraq seems to have don better than Obama's Afghanistan.

He is right that AFghanistan derseved attention. I agreed with that. He is correct that Bush dropped the ball by going on his snipe hunt in Iraq. And yes, it could have been done much earlier. Where I disagreed with Obama was in him listening to his generals and deciding to go ahead with a surge that even they admitted might not succeed even if they got everything they wanted. He would have been better to have limited the mission to what we needed.

He did not say what you clai though. So, there was no real lie.
 
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Re: President Obama To Announce Details of Afghanistan Strategy On Wednesday

But the surge worked did it not?
 
Re: President Obama To Announce Details of Afghanistan Strategy On Wednesday

But the surge worked did it not?

What's worked? We've been in Afghanistan for a decade, with nothing suggesting we wouldn't be there for another decade.
 
Re: President Obama To Announce Details of Afghanistan Strategy On Wednesday

But the surge worked did it not?

Obama cocked it up. He went against everything his commanders on the ground suggested.
 
Re: President Obama To Announce Details of Afghanistan Strategy On Wednesday

Why not? We did that in Europe and it turned out all right.

Lots of factors are in play....Today (like in now) The majority of, the politician's mindset is that they aren't looking at what is best for the nation as their primary goal, at least most of the time. They are looking out for gains in their party power and their own re-election. Consequently, there is very, very little long term thinking and planning.
 
Re: President Obama To Announce Details of Afghanistan Strategy On Wednesday

Obama cocked it up. He went against everything his commanders on the ground suggested.

If he had, there would not have been a surge. ANd I would have agreed with him. :coffeepap
 
Re: President Obama To Announce Details of Afghanistan Strategy On Wednesday

Obama cocked it up. He went against everything his commanders on the ground suggested.

That's not true at all. You just want to find ways to go against the President. His plan has been right on the money.
 
Re: President Obama To Announce Details of Afghanistan Strategy On Wednesday

But the surge worked did it not?

Boo claims the surge didn't work in Iraq. and it seems like mere "nuances" such as a complete change in doctrine are beyond his willingness to grasp in Afghanistan. My first post that you latched on to about people who spent the last several years hollering that Afghanistan was the 'good war' and Iraq the 'bad war' so we needed to put all those resources in Afghanistan? .... yeah ....
 
Re: President Obama To Announce Details of Afghanistan Strategy On Wednesday

Boo claims the surge didn't work in Iraq. and it seems like mere "nuances" such as a complete change in doctrine are beyond his willingness to grasp in Afghanistan. My first post that you latched on to about people who spent the last several years hollering that Afghanistan was the 'good war' and Iraq the 'bad war' so we needed to put all those resources in Afghanistan? .... yeah ....

If you're going to state my position, do so honestly. I say the Iraqi's are responsible for Iraq. They started the awakening, which was the tide turner.

And yes, as I stated earlier, Afghanistan deserved more attention, and that I understood going into Afghanistan, but never called it the good war. I have always said we should not have invaded. Being honest CP is part of what we should try to do here.
 
Re: President Obama To Announce Details of Afghanistan Strategy On Wednesday

He is right that AFghanistan derseved attention. I agreed with that. He is correct that Bush dropped the ball by going on his snipe hunt in Iraq. And yes, it could have been done much earlier. Where I disagreed with Obama was in him listening to his generals and deciding to go ahead with a surge that even they admitted might not succeed even if they got everything they wanted. He would have been better to have limited the mission to what we needed.

He did not say what you clai though. So, there was no real lie.

He said more than Afghanistan "deserved attention". It is also not true that George Bush went on a "snipe hunt" in Iraq.

This disgusting dishonesty gets overwhelming sometimes, and ruins honest debate.
 
Re: President Obama To Announce Details of Afghanistan Strategy On Wednesday

He said more than Afghanistan "deserved attention". It is also not true that George Bush went on a "snipe hunt" in Iraq.

This disgusting dishonesty gets overwhelming sometimes, and ruins honest debate.

He went after WMDs that weren't. While I make a little fun, it's not entirely unreasonable to call that a snipe hunt.

Now, as I've said, I agree Afghanistan deserved more attention. Obama was right about that.
 
Re: President Obama To Announce Details of Afghanistan Strategy On Wednesday

That's not true at all. You just want to find ways to go against the President. His plan has been right on the money.

So, that's why the Taliban is rejoicing in Obama's retreat? Because he kicked the crap out of them?
 
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