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Thread: US troops coming home? Obama to say on Wednesday

  1. #381
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    Re: US troops coming home? Obama to say on Wednesday

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    The reason that we has to go to Afghanistan in 2001, is because we didn't perform a little nation building in 1986. The Russians left, so we washed our hands of Afghanistan, then the crazies moved in. Now, 2011--and into 2012--we're going to wash our hands of Afghanistan and the crazies are just going to move right back in, again. This retreat is history repeating itself. The same thing happened in 1918.
    I see your point, but I'd like to offer a different perspective.

    It's extremely difficult, if not impossible, to nation-build in a country like Afghanistan with its history, geography, and demographics. It's a landlocked country. Doesn't have whole lot of natural resources (unless you count the mineral deposits that were just recently discovered). Its people have a tribal, almost medieval-like attitude toward society. There is no NATION of Afghans, it's merely a country with arbitrarily Western-drawn borders with a collection of a few different tribes.

    Another point, should we have had to nation-build in every country we fought the Cold War in in order to forestall future POTENTIAL terrorist attacks? Should we have had to expend resources nation-building in a lot of those Latin American, African, and Asian third-world countries who faced political instability, just like Afghanistan, after the Cold War? I mean, hindsight is always 20-20.
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
    - Colonel Paul Yingling

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    Re: US troops coming home? Obama to say on Wednesday

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    The reason that we has to go to Afghanistan in 2001, is because we didn't perform a little nation building in 1986. The Russians left, so we washed our hands of Afghanistan, then the crazies moved in. Now, 2011--and into 2012--we're going to wash our hands of Afghanistan and the crazies are just going to move right back in, again. This retreat is history repeating itself. The same thing happened in 1918.
    Leaving or not leaving A-stan? Arguments both for and against?

    I'll see your side....willing to consider your ideas and opinions

    What would have happened had we bombed and kicked the **** out of A-stan and Iraq and then just left them to recover and sort themselves out? Whatever our complaints about the people hating us now, it would be ten times worse. The leadership, i.e. strongman, that emerged would be solidly anti-American with wide popular support. We could say to them, don't support terrorists or we'll come back and do it again, but that isn't effective with that culture. That approach would only be effective if we were willing to so destroy the population and infrastructure that their only concern was whether they could scrape together enough food and sticks to last through the winter, with no economy, nothing but the barest amount of local organization and no national structure left to speak of.

    We haven't, and we won't do that. So nation building, filling the vacuum, is the only viable, long term solution. Which is why we can't afford to abandon Iraq or Afghanistan until a government which is at least neutral, is strong enough to control the people.

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    Re: US troops coming home? Obama to say on Wednesday

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    I see your point, but I'd like to offer a different perspective.

    It's extremely difficult, if not impossible, to nation-build in a country like Afghanistan with its history, geography, and demographics. It's a landlocked country. Doesn't have whole lot of natural resources (unless you count the mineral deposits that were just recently discovered). Its people have a tribal, almost medieval-like attitude toward society. There is no NATION of Afghans, it's merely a country with arbitrarily Western-drawn borders with a collection of a few different tribes.

    Another point, should we have had to nation-build in every country we fought the Cold War in in order to forestall future POTENTIAL terrorist attacks? Should we have had to expend resources nation-building in a lot of those Latin American, African, and Asian third-world countries who faced political instability, just like Afghanistan, after the Cold War? I mean, hindsight is always 20-20.
    The same could have been said about Japan, as well.

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    Re: US troops coming home? Obama to say on Wednesday

    Quote Originally Posted by ric27 View Post
    Leaving or not leaving A-stan? Arguments both for and against?

    I'll see your side....willing to consider your ideas and opinions

    What would have happened had we bombed and kicked the **** out of A-stan and Iraq and then just left them to recover and sort themselves out? Whatever our complaints about the people hating us now, it would be ten times worse. The leadership, i.e. strongman, that emerged would be solidly anti-American with wide popular support. We could say to them, don't support terrorists or we'll come back and do it again, but that isn't effective with that culture. That approach would only be effective if we were willing to so destroy the population and infrastructure that their only concern was whether they could scrape together enough food and sticks to last through the winter, with no economy, nothing but the barest amount of local organization and no national structure left to speak of.

    We haven't, and we won't do that. So nation building, filling the vacuum, is the only viable, long term solution. Which is why we can't afford to abandon Iraq or Afghanistan until a government which is at least neutral, is strong enough to control the people.
    It worked in Japan and Germany. In The Confederacy. In fact, it's worked everywhere that it's been performed.

    What has been hsitorically prove not to work, has been a half assed attempt at waging war and more importantly, waging the peace that followed. We're going to make another half ass attempt at waging peace and it will fail.

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    Re: US troops coming home? Obama to say on Wednesday

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    It worked in Japan and Germany. In The Confederacy. In fact, it's worked everywhere that it's been performed.

    What has been hsitorically prove not to work, has been a half assed attempt at waging war and more importantly, waging the peace that followed. We're going to make another half ass attempt at waging peace and it will fail.
    did it work in germany after WWI
    hardly
    the way that defeated nation was treated - the "peace" which was ordained by the victors - ultimately led to WWII

    we cannot - we should not try - to impose our will on other nations
    help, yes
    control, no
    pity you are unable to discern the difference
    we are negotiating about dividing a pizza and in the meantime israel is eating it
    once you're over the hill you begin to pick up speed

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    Re: US troops coming home? Obama to say on Wednesday

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    did it work in germany after WWI
    hardly
    the way that defeated nation was treated - the "peace" which was ordained by the victors - ultimately led to WWII

    we cannot - we should not try - to impose our will on other nations
    help, yes
    control, no
    pity you are unable to discern the difference
    Because no nation building took place in Germany after WW1. I made that point earlier.

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    Re: US troops coming home? Obama to say on Wednesday

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    What has been hsitorically prove not to work, has been a half assed attempt at waging war and more importantly, waging the peace that followed. We're going to make another half ass attempt at waging peace and it will fail.
    You rest, refit and retrain. It won't be long...

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    Re: US troops coming home? Obama to say on Wednesday

    Quote Originally Posted by ric27 View Post
    You rest, refit and retrain. It won't be long...
    Not to mention, remember the lessons we learned this go-'round, because they're going to come in handy in a few years.

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    Re: US troops coming home? Obama to say on Wednesday

    karzai's brother, ahmad wali, was assassinated in kandahar yesterday

    Ahmad Wali Karzai assassination 'huge propaganda boost for Taliban' - Telegraph

    His assassination is likely to drive home a very stark message to the Afghan population, that the Afghan state under President Karzai is incapable of providing security, even for its own leadership. As such, this will make it much harder for Nato to persuade the local population to switch their allegiance to the Afghan government as ISAF forces begin to hand over the security lead to Afghan.
    whether or not he was strung out, wali appears to have been quite the playa, more so than his kook of a brother, at least

    The immediate commercial impact of his death will be felt by the string of businesses owned by the 'King of Kandahar,' as the staunchly pro-US Ahmad Karzai was known; their future is now unclear. These include influential private security companies, such as Watan Risk Management and Asia Security Group, which have contracts with ISAF for protecting its supply convoys.

    The latter also runs its own private paramilitary unit in the province – the Kandahar Strike Force that assisted US Special Forces and the CIA to seek out and kill senior Taliban insurgents. Ahmad also owned or ran a string of hotels, real estate companies and even a Toyota car dealership.

    He will also be remembered for the extensive narcotics empire that he ran from Kandahar, under the aegis of the provincial government. The smuggling operations he set up are unlikely to fracture in his absence.
    party on, peaceniks

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    Re: US troops coming home? Obama to say on Wednesday


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