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Thread: US troops coming home? Obama to say on Wednesday

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    Re: President Obama To Announce Details of Afghanistan Strategy On Wednesday

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    But....but...didn't candidate Obama, in 2008, support the people of Afghanistan?

    Obama calls situation in Afghanistan 'urgent' - CNN
    And he was right. I know nuance isn't liked by many who support imperialistic efforts, but nuance is required. Afghanstan deserved more attention than Iraq. Bush dropped the ball going on the snipe hunt in Iraq. So, when Obama said in 2008 that the focus needed to be there, he was right, and I ageed. Obama was wrong later when he went with the surge and continued nation building. You may not understand this, but there are rarely only two options. The better focus would have been to simply keep viglent on those issues that concern us, like training camps and threats, leavng Afghanistan to the Afghan people.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: President Obama To Announce Details of Afghanistan Strategy On Wednesday

    Quote Originally Posted by Gargantuan View Post
    You could have argued his point with a much better rebuttal than "obama is surrendering to the taliban".

    Boo radley, we already are there, and simply "taking the nation away" is not what is occurring. Read all of cpwill's posts and tell me you still think a withdrawl is what is going to do it. You can't just track people down without having people on the ground.
    I'm very familar with CP and his thoughts. We've discussed much over the years. Nor do I say we're taking the nation away. I state quite clearly that this is simply their country and up to them. Period. What we're doing has nothing to do with. Their country is theirs, for them to decide. Not us.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: President Obama To Announce Details of Afghanistan Strategy On Wednesday

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Yeah, nevermind that we were attacked by people, hiding in Afghanistan, being given sanctuary by the Taliban.

    But hey, let's go ahead and let history repeat itself. I hope it's not your kid that has to die in the next war, because we didn't finish this one.
    No, not really. The people who attacked us died in the planes. The head of the group was in Afghanstan, and not really hiding at the time. Later, he hid in Pakistan. But group members are largely all over the world. The point is, we can't invade everyone.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: President Obama To Announce Details of Afghanistan Strategy On Wednesday

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    I'm very familar with CP and his thoughts. We've discussed much over the years. Nor do I say we're taking the nation away. I state quite clearly that this is simply their country and up to them. Period. What we're doing has nothing to do with. Their country is theirs, for them to decide. Not us.
    It went from being their country and up to them when a government that sheltered terrorists aimed at destroying our nation to being a country where we make the decisions until they get back on their feet a long time ago. My personal view? We should have colonized both Afghanistan and Iraq, and then have moved on to take other parts of the Middle East. That would've worked a lot better for us in the long run. But the point is, you're right. We cannot invade everywhere. Terrorism is global. It's not just one country, with one building that says "taliban" that we are fighting to take over. But the process is arleady in effect. WE have already gotten a footing and we should finish the job, that is, at the troop levels Obama has given, continue to fight to push the Taliban, since they influence the entire border region with Pakistan, and begin to train their forces until they can right seat.
    Last edited by Gargantuan; 06-26-11 at 04:11 AM.

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    Re: President Obama To Announce Details of Afghanistan Strategy On Wednesday

    Quote Originally Posted by Gargantuan View Post
    It went from being their country and up to them when a government that sheltered terrorists aimed at destroying our nation to being a country where we make the decisions until they get back on their feet a long time ago. My personal view? We should have colonized both Afghanistan and Iraq, and then have moved on to take other parts of the Middle East. That would've worked a lot better for us in the long run.
    NO, it was still theirs. Afghanstan didn't attack us. Neither did the Taliban. Go get those who did. Fine. Invade and nation build, no. Imperialism comes at a cost.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: President Obama To Announce Details of Afghanistan Strategy On Wednesday

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    NO, it was still theirs. Afghanstan didn't attack us. Neither did the Taliban. Go get those who did. Fine. Invade and nation build, no. Imperialism comes at a cost.
    But we didn't fully do imperialism though. We didn't get any benefit to our nation from it. We should have colonized the entire region and taken their oil.

    heres the rest of my post I edited it while you made the response.

    But the point is, you're right. We cannot invade everywhere. Terrorism is global. It's not just one country, with one building that says "taliban" that we are fighting to take over. But the process is arleady in effect. WE have already gotten a footing and we should finish the job, that is, at the troop levels Obama has given, continue to fight to push the Taliban, since they influence the entire border region with Pakistan, and begin to train their forces until they can right seat.

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    Re: President Obama To Announce Details of Afghanistan Strategy On Wednesday

    Quote Originally Posted by Gargantuan View Post
    But we didn't fully do imperialism though. We didn't get any benefit to our nation from it. We should have colonized the entire region and taken their oil.

    heres the rest of my post I edited it while you made the response.
    It's been a decade. Their troops should be largely trained by now, even with the snipe hunt in Iraq. And we can still hit terrorist, even with a small contingent. We do not need to occupy and nation build to do that. The Taliban has never shown any real interest in much out side their area. They are not Al Qaeda, unless of course our mistakes has added a new demention to them, which we then could still contain and destroy without occupying and nation building.

    Yes, you're right that we were only semi imperialistic, but much too far down that road for my tastes. We need to interact with the world, but not seek to control it. Hell, even Reagan understood that.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: President Obama To Announce Details of Afghanistan Strategy On Wednesday

    But the thing is we were not focusing on training them years ago. That was not the policy of the Bush admin. We had around 20-40k troops in Afghanistan at the time. And the nation building is necessary to have the civilians, who are the first line of fighting terror, as cpwill said, "buy in" to the new government.

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    Re: President Obama To Announce Details of Afghanistan Strategy On Wednesday

    Quote Originally Posted by Gargantuan View Post
    Yeah I don't blame you. I have some buddies who have made life time careers out of the Coast Guard but as enlisted military seems like a tough life, especially since you have a family. Wouldn't that be just great if you went to the NG then got deployed to Afghanistan... You're stationed in Japan right now though? Just basing that on your profile thing.
    Okinawa right now; though I travel around a bit.

    Maybe experiences were not too different then :d
    lol, maybe not.

    I have a good feeling we are going to see those 4 fighting seasons
    I hope so, man. I've lost good buddies now in Iraq and Afghanistan. With Iraq, you can tell yourself "yeah, but look what they bought with their lives - that's worth it, that's something you can hang your hat on". Choosing to lose in Afghanistan.... it would be the opposite of that.

    If this current withdrawl plan was really that bad and was going to be that horrible for security I have a feeling we'd have seen a major dissent amongst military leaders and some resignations in the civilian side
    you do have major dissent among the military leaders and the civilian side. Patraeus and Gates have both gone as far as decorum allows in letting it be known that they oppose this withdrawal plan and the original artificial withdrawal date that guides it.

    I know a military leader can't just take off his uniform when he disagrees with the President and go home, but if it was that bad I'd bet for example the guy appointed to be joint chiefs chair wouldn't have stuck around.
    In fact they passed over their first pick and it is rumored for roughly that reason.

    I thin we are going to see exactly what you said or something similar, but the military leaders are going to be able to handle it with that many troops the President has given the OK to. The withdrawl plan I think is stupid though you are right about that - one thing I noticed though is that 2014 isn't when we agree to leave, it's when we agree to put Afghanistan in full charge (we as in ISAF, not the us specfically)
    again, I hope so. we will have to see how badly Obama needs to shore up his base going into fall 2012.

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    Re: President Obama To Announce Details of Afghanistan Strategy On Wednesday

    Quote Originally Posted by Gargantuan View Post
    But the thing is we were not focusing on training them years ago. That was not the policy of the Bush admin. We had around 20-40k troops in Afghanistan at the time.
    precisely. Much was made of Rumsfelds' "you go to war with the military you have" comment - but not enough has been emphasized that you go to war with the doctrine that you have as well. up until late 2005/2006, the brass seems to have largely thought it was still fighting Desert Storm - and that what was needed was big-line-units sweeping boldly across geography. Not until 2006/2007 do we see the development of and implementation of the quote/unquote "new" counterinsurgency doctrine, and even then it was test-run first by the Marines in Ramada and Fallujah, then in the rest of the Sunni Triangle, and then the Army took those lessons into Baghdad. They didn't have the thing really nailed down until 2008 - and then it was an election year, so on and so forth; so we didn't get to start looking into "surge" ing in Afghanistan until 2009, and didn't start putting boots on the deck until 2010. One of my sister Battalions was the first to go, in December 2009 / Januaray 2010.

    So we haven't really had a decade. We've had 18 months. And in that 18 months we've seen very impressive results.

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