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Thread: US troops coming home? Obama to say on Wednesday

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    Re: President Obama To Announce Details of Afghanistan Strategy On Wednesday

    This is terrible. Leave it up to the troops, if they want to fight...let them fight.

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    Re: President Obama To Announce Details of Afghanistan Strategy On Wednesday

    Quote Originally Posted by theonlypatriot View Post
    This is terrible. Leave it up to the troops, if they want to fight...let them fight.
    No, that's not how it works. Sorry.

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    Re: President Obama To Announce Details of Afghanistan Strategy On Wednesday

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    unfortunately you are incorrect in your assessment. If you are purchasing an object on layaway, getting to the last payment and deciding not to make it and pick up the item is the waste - making the payment at least gets' you the good.
    The flaw in this analogy is that when you make the payments, you are getting closer to an actual goal (i.e. paying off the debt). Whereas we don't have ANY clear objectives in Afghanistan, and the situation on the ground is terrible. Furthermore, we have no way of knowing whether we're on our "last payment," if we have 100 to go, or if it will never be accomplished. And Dick Cheney exhausted my tolerance for "The insurgency is in its last throes" type of arguments, when the situation on the ground suggests nothing of the kind.

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill
    We can make those sacrifices worth it, or we can make them meaningless. We owe it to them, to ourselves, to posterity, and to the Afghans to make it worth it.
    Doubling down on a mistake rarely pays off. It's been ten years. What ever our original goals in Afghanistan were, they've either been accomplished or proven to be impossible to accomplish. And we don't "owe" anything to dead people - they don't care. Nor do we owe it to our posterity, as Afghanistan will completely fall off the international news radar screen the day we withdraw. As for owing it to the Afghans...I suppose this is a variant on Colin Powell's "You broke it, you buy it" argument. But Afghanistan has always been broken. And if we are concerned for their wellbeing, let's help them through methods that are more cost-effective and less controversial, like assisting them with basic health care and finally eradicating polio.

    actually to give him props where it's due, Obama's Afghan policy is superior to most of what we saw under Bush. That is because to a large extent he took advantage of Bush's Iraq-Surge success.... but it still leaves him with a superior Afghan policy.
    A superior policy would entail a goal with some strategic justification, and progress toward accomplishing that goal. I see no goal whatsoever, and little progress toward much of anything that could even be considered a goal.
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  4. #184
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    Re: President Obama To Announce Details of Afghanistan Strategy On Wednesday

    Quote Originally Posted by theonlypatriot View Post
    This is terrible. Leave it up to the troops, if they want to fight...let them fight.
    Wait. What?
    He touched her over her bra and underpants, she says, and guided her hand to touch him over his underwear
    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    We’ll say what? Something like “nothing happened” ... Yeah, we might say something like that.

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    Re: President Obama To Announce Details of Afghanistan Strategy On Wednesday

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    No, that's not how it works.
    true, it's OBAMA'S WAR, alright

    just like LIBYA

    good point

    american casualites are up 400% in afghanistan since obama ESCALATED

    iCasualties: Operation Iraqi Freedom and Operation Enduring Freedom Casualties

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    Re: President Obama To Announce Details of Afghanistan Strategy On Wednesday

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    The flaw in this analogy is that when you make the payments, you are getting closer to an actual goal (i.e. paying off the debt). Whereas we don't have ANY clear objectives in Afghanistan,
    this is incorrect. the endstate in Afghanistan is simple to state and merely complicated to accomplish - an Afghan state chosen by it's people capable of defending itself against Islamist attacks from the Taliban and like/allied elements, such as the Haqqani Network.

    and the situation on the ground is terrible.
    this is also incorrect. the situation on the ground is entirely dependent on locality - in the areas' where we have applied a proven counterinsurgency strategy (commonly called "the Surge", after the manpower it requires), the turnarounds have been dramatic in some areas, and amazing in others.

    Furthermore, we have no way of knowing whether we're on our "last payment," if we have 100 to go, or if it will never be accomplished
    on the contrary, trend analysis, local measurements of state improvement, and step/tests for military and police professionalization all provide strong metrics that indicate nearness to the goal.

    And Dick Cheney exhausted my tolerance for "The insurgency is in its last throes" type of arguments, when the situation on the ground suggests nothing of the kind.
    again, it depends on where you are. It also depends when you are - this foolish withdraw plan that has us pulling troops out in the middle of the fighting season literally forces the enemy to accept victory.

    as for the facts on the ground, however, they do not indicate at large an insurgency in its' death throes - though in some places that is an accurate depiction. However, when we are speaking of the areas into which the Taliban ran free and into which we surged, we can speak of a general tipping point that has been passed wherein the insurgency is losing. Losing freedom of movement, losing his ability to conduct effective M&I campaigns, etc.

    the only thing he's not losing is he's not losing the populace's active advantage to the Americans. Because we have a commander in chief stupid enough to put out a withdrawal date. Which means that every Afghan Peasant knows that if he sides with the Americans, in two years, they will abandon him and he will be murdered along with his family by an enemy that the American President was too weak to defeat. In order to win active support of the populace (which is the final Big Piece in a counterinsurgency campaign), you have to convince them that you are the winning side. We have the ability to do that, and we did that in Iraq. But apparently we don't want to do that in Afghanistan, because that might piss off our liberal base, and so instead we will take a course that guarantees that the Afghan civilian populace will largely try to sit this one out. They don't wish to side with the Taliban; not just because they are wildly unpopular, but because wherever Americans are, we are winning - and they don't want to side with Americans, because the Americans have already announced that they intend to lose.

    Doubling down on a mistake rarely pays off.
    invading Afghanistan will only prove to have been a mistake if we decide to lose.

    It's been ten years. What ever our original goals in Afghanistan were, they've either been accomplished or proven to be impossible to accomplish
    this is incorrect. A proper Counterinsurgency Doctrine has only been in effect in Afghanistan for a little over a year - and it has had exceedingly positive results.

    And we don't "owe" anything to dead people - they don't care
    quite the contrary, we owe them quite a bit. that they cannot personally receive does not make our debt any less.

    Nor do we owe it to our posterity
    we do here as well. the American decision to lose in Vietnam immeasurably harmed this nation - and we were more able to accept the blow then. currently such an effect would be magnified. the decision on our part to withdraw will be a decision to leave an entire populace to the tender mercies of hyper-violent, xenophobic, murderous Islamist Fundamentalists. We will be choosing to abandon the innocent to the murderer and rapist. We will be choosing to let pscyhos pour acid on little girls faces for the crime of wishing to know how to read, or listen to music. We owe it to posterity not to be the kind of people who would do that.

    as Afghanistan will completely fall off the international news radar screen the day we withdraw.
    well, if its not on CNN who cares, right? ****it!

    As for owing it to the Afghans...I suppose this is a variant on Colin Powell's "You broke it, you buy it" argument
    we did. we invaded that nation, and set her people at war against the Taliban. If we abandon her to the Taliban now, their revenge upon that populace will be blood-curdling - and not a little bit of that blood will be on our hands.

    And if we are concerned for their wellbeing, let's help them through methods that are more cost-effective and less controversial, like assisting them with basic health care and finally eradicating polio.
    awesome idea. and how do you plan to pull this off when the doctors you send are kidnapped and have their throats slit by a pscyhotic paranoid Islamist government? Hey, while we're at it, guns hurt people - let's train our soldiers to attack the Taliban with hugs.


    Healthcare, sanitation, better farming methodology, education; all these are important - and all of them are part of our long term strategy. But Security Comes First Or The Rest Will Come Not At All.

    A superior policy would entail a goal with some strategic justification
    already in place, even if our administration seems unwilling to actually wholeheartedly pursue it.

    and progress toward accomplishing that goal
    already being achieved.

    I see no goal whatsoever, and little progress toward much of anything that could even be considered a goal.
    well it's not our fault if you're not paying attention.

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    Re: President Obama To Announce Details of Afghanistan Strategy On Wednesday

    Quote Originally Posted by The Prof View Post
    true, it's OBAMA'S WAR, alright

    just like LIBYA

    good point

    american casualites are up 400% in afghanistan since obama ESCALATED

    iCasualties: Operation Iraqi Freedom and Operation Enduring Freedom Casualties
    yes, Prof, that's what happens when you go on the offensive. You lose more guys in the short-term so that you can lose fewer in the long-term.

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    Re: President Obama To Announce Details of Afghanistan Strategy On Wednesday

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    yes, Prof, that's what happens when you go on the offensive. You lose more guys in the short-term so that you can lose fewer in the long-term.
    That's the hope, at least.
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
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    Re: US troops coming home? Obama to say on Wednesday

    Quote Originally Posted by Mickey Shane View Post
    Not listening to "his generals" that are of a lower rank?
    but of superior experience and expertise. He's the boss and he makes the decisions - but that means he is responsible for their outcomes as well. If we flood out, and the Taliban flood in, we will be able to watch the resultant civilian bloodbath and turn and say that it was His Decision, Against the advice of those who Knew Better.

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    Re: President Obama To Announce Details of Afghanistan Strategy On Wednesday

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    That's the hope, at least.
    generally it works either way - the offensive succeeds and the war ends, or the offensive fails, and the war ends. Dragged out conflicts that produce constant streams of casualties are worse in the long run than short ones that produce up-front casualties. Be that as it may - we appear to be about to select the worst of both worlds; our offensive is succeeding, but we're going to quit anyway.

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