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Thread: As Corporate Profits Soar, Workers are Making Less!

  1. #221
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    Re: As Corporate Profits Soar, Workers are Making Less!

    I wasn't talking to you.

    Its indirect 3rd party harm so its hard to see, or ever comprehend, that the harm exist; however, those harmful affects are known by all now and its done strictly to save money and skirt regulations. Its not done to charge less for those products, especially now since global demand and supply largely are how prices are determined.
    It still effects competition. If the company decides to lower prices with their added supply, they can. They can also decide to not lower prices, and in essence have a surplus on product. They then can start cutting on the costs of production. Either way, it is beneficial for the company.

    Yes, that's why in every place where there are excessive controls on the trade of goods, a black market is created. America was financed in its early years by smuggling. In fact, many of the founders were smugglers themselves.
    So...why is this a good thing again? We do not put any controls on the market, greed takes over. If we put excessive controls, a black market is created, which has the same consequences with the added bit that you aren't paying any taxes on the product. So then you would argue, it is in the balance of regulation. Which in turn, doesn't address the fact that people who are addicted to money and power will break the rules one way or another.

    And doing this should, and rightfully is illegal as well as being immoral. I think we should have tougher stances on these issues, the consequence should be prison sentences not fines (go Ron Paul go); however, such regulations and consequences are perfectly in-line with capitalism and free trade.
    First, there will never be tougher stances on this issue because of lobbying. "However, such regulations and consequences (I am assuming fines, correct?) are perfectly in-line with capitalism and free trade." Once again, you do not state how this is a good thing. So fining someone instead of locking them up is somehow good? Or maybe you mean that locking someone up for dumping waste would be in line with capitalism and free trade? Either way, this doesn't address the fact that there is a financial incentive to break the rules, there always will be, therefore there will always be someone taking advantage of people and the environment.

  2. #222
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    Re: As Corporate Profits Soar, Workers are Making Less!

    Quote Originally Posted by ItsAProcess View Post
    We don't, we hate companies who make a profit and then refuse to share that profit with the workers who make sure the company keeps making profits!
    Would you be overjoyed if profits were down? And they do share the profit in the form of salary, benefits etc., These profits are a good thing but I do agree that it needs to start paying off in terms of unemployment soon. Maybe not immediately, but we should see steady growth in the next couple of quarters. It would be irrresponsible for any company to distribute all their profits to their employees. Companies have to build up their reserves and give reason for banks to loan them money to start new projects. This stuff doesn't happen overnight. It is a process. Long term growth is what we want.

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    Re: As Corporate Profits Soar, Workers are Making Less!

    Quote Originally Posted by Misterveritis View Post
    Not all government regulation. But all government regulations that are not in the Constitution. Today that includes a great deal of what government does. If the departments and the regulations fulfill a role that is approved for government by the US Constitution then there is a limited place for them.
    The EPA meets that requirement FYI.

    And government welfare is bad. Hayek and Friedman notwithstanding. They are not allowed powers to the Federal government. Therefore they are extra-constitutional.
    Hayek said that capitalism can be maintained with extensive systems of social welfare, Freidman said that they were counter productive expect for some limited cases (public works projects for example). But I've never been one to give any validity to strict consitutionalist argument because the founders weren't strict constitutionalist themselves.

    Quote Originally Posted by sookster;1059582299
    So...why is this a good thing again? We do not put any controls on the market, greed takes over. If we put excessive controls, a black market is created, which has the same consequences with the added bit that you aren't paying any taxes on the product. So then you would argue, it is in the balance of regulation. Which in turn, doesn't address the fact that people who are addicted to money and power will break the rules one way or another.[/quote

    The reason its a good thing to decentralize the economy, trade, and all walks of life is because the abuses of a few do not have a determental impact to the whole. Usually, as soon as a company is found out to be doing wrong, they are boycotted in a Capitalistic society, which froces them to change their ways. The vast majority of people aren't only motived by economic factors.

    But your contention with capitalism isn't actually with capitalism, its with Human nature. Since its human nature to put yourself and those you know before everyone else, the system needs to be set up to provide a bulkwalk against those types of abuses. In a Socialist and autocratic governments (this includes the Venus Project), the worst people typically make it to the top and impose their will on the masses.



    First, there will never be tougher stances on this issue because of lobbying.
    Which is why the government should stay out of the system as much as possible to prevent the grants of privilege

    "However, such regulations and consequences (I am assuming fines, correct?) are perfectly in-line with capitalism and free trade." Once again, you do not state how this is a good thing. So fining someone instead of locking them up is somehow good?
    I said that we should have tougher penalties. If you knowingly poison a water supply, or it happened because you didn't follow the rules, you should go to jail and the company should be fined.

    Either way, this doesn't address the fact that there is a financial incentive to break the rules, there always will be, therefore there will always be someone taking advantage of people and the environment.
    There's always incentive to break the rules regardless what type of society you have set up. It human nature to lie, cheat, and steal one's way to the top. The Venus Project is no different, in fact, there is even more motive to do so. Imagine the amount of power a person would wield if everyone's lively-hood depended on them (the state)!

    Quote Originally Posted by jambalaya View Post
    Would you be overjoyed if profits were down? And they do share the profit in the form of salary, benefits etc.,
    No, those are part of the operating cost. Profit is determined after that. The only people being given a large single share in profits are CEOs, which is counter productive. For the most part they already make a crap load of money and they aren't likely to reinvest that money into the company. But lets look at it from a macro-economic scale. What is better for society as a whole, the top 20% getting more money, or the bottom 80% getting more money?

    Now lets look at it on a micro-economic scale. Lets say a company makes high end cars and gets enough profit they feel the CEO should get 150million. He gets that money, but instead of keeping it all, he gives half it away, evenly, to 1000 employees. Those employees can now afford the car the company makes and some of them buy it, making the company more profitable.
    Hayek - too liberal for republicans

  4. #224
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    Re: As Corporate Profits Soar, Workers are Making Less!

    Oh my god...ANOTHER one of these threads?

    Here...



    and here...




    CAN WE ALL GO HOME NOW?
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    Thanks for your awesomeness, Jeezy.

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    Re: As Corporate Profits Soar, Workers are Making Less!

    Do you know if the charts showing real compensation levels include employer covered health care costs, retirement funding and other non direct (ie wages and salary) compensation
    Happy Hanukkah Cheerfull Kwanzaa
    Happy Christmas Merry New Year Festivus for the rest of us

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    Re: As Corporate Profits Soar, Workers are Making Less!

    It's wages/salaries...meaning your take-home pay plus everything payable and withheld (income taxes, money paid to social insurance, etc.).
    Last edited by Jeezy; 06-20-11 at 09:19 PM.
    SWAGSWAGSWAGSWAGSWAGSWAGSWAGSWAG
    Quote Originally Posted by Josie
    Thanks for your awesomeness, Jeezy.

  7. #227
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    Re: As Corporate Profits Soar, Workers are Making Less!

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    neither is anything else - "fair" is subjective. you could say a formula was "fair", but you would be pulling it out of the sky.
    Yes, the word fair is subjective, but reasonable human beings have smoe sense of what is fair, and can be expected while protecting thier best interests to seek ways to be fair, and not just greedy. If the labor is largely on one side, and the vast majority of the profits going o the other, it is not reasonable to call that fair. A balance between labor in capital is always best, with both feeling they are benefitted properly.

    actually price on the market has to do with the aggregate decision of all producers, sellers, and consumers. the price on the market represents what the people as a whole consider to be "fair".
    Only in the theoretical world. Reality is that some times imbalances take place, and he consumer is unhappy with the price, with some opting to go without, and the workers aren ot happy with compensation, but the owners make large profit. Unions have shown it can go the other way as well, which is just the flip side of the same coin. Those who worship the "market" often have a romanticized view that has more to do with ideology than with truth.

    But that is really another discussion. Here, what we're talking about is that business is doing well, btu not trickling down.

    if labor is not worth it's current wages, then that is the situation that isn't fair. if labor is worth more than it's current wages, then it can get those higher wages elsewhere, which is fair. if a business under pays it's employees, then its' competition will thus be able to destroy it as they will have all the quality people, and that, too, is fair.
    This would only be true if business were truely competitive like this. When was the last time you saw a gas war, for example. Instead, we've changed oour approach, and instead of working with competition here, our companies bail and go to places where they don't have to pay much of a wage at all. This may make their profits unreal, but betrays many who worked hard for their profits in the past. It has nothing to do with our market.


    workers have just as much a voice as the business already. mutually beneficial trade requires at least two actors.
    I'm saddened that you believe that. Perhaps one day your life experience will catch up with you to know how untrue that is. It is as wrong as the thought that only the most qualified get the job. The fact is business has a natural advantage, especially during hard times.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: As Corporate Profits Soar, Workers are Making Less!

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    our companies bail and go to places where they don't have to pay much of a wage at all
    and the slasher PROMOTES em

    Obama Picks Jeffrey Immelt, GE CEO, To Run New Jobs-Focused Panel As GE Sends Jobs Overseas, Pays Little In Taxes

    the slasher turns to em FOR ADVICE

    good point

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    Re: As Corporate Profits Soar, Workers are Making Less!

    the big picture is---there's nothing any of you are gonna be able to do to stop it

    the wave of austerity, from athens to sacto, it's inexorable

    it's higher than a house in deep blue NEW YORK, as tall as el capitan in CALIFORNIA

    it's downing DETROIT, it's draconian

    it killed collective bargaining in MASSACHUSETTS

    and it's all thru ILLINOIS, barack the slasher's own home town

    today:

    The average Chicago household now owes a staggering $63,525 to cover local government debt, according to Cook County Treasurer Maria Pappas.

    Suburbanites are deeply in the red, too, with the average household owing $32,901, according to the treasurer.

    Among the biggest reasons: $25 billion in unfunded pension liability.

    In comments after an appearance Tuesday before The Civic Federation, a watchdog group that has released somewhat similar numbers in recent years, Ms. Pappas said she was "stunned" to learn that county taxpayers on the whole owe more than $108 billion toward local debt.

    The figures were derived from a recently passed debt disclosure law. Ms. Pappas said the numbers have never before been compiled in this fashion.

    "This goes well beyond big cities," she said. "These fiscal problems permeate townships, villages, school districts, park districts, fire protection districts and more, and the taxpayers are on the hook."

    Overall, she said, municipalities have $61 billion in debt. And educational districts, $20 billion. Cook County owes $18 billion and various sanitary districts collectively owe $4.4 billion.

    In some ways the problem is actually worse than it appears. Ms. Pappas' report does not include totals from 55 of the county's 553 local units of government, which failed to report their debt figures to her.

    State lawmakers last year adopted changes that will reduce pension liabilities over time, but only for new employees. A bill that would reduce benefits or increase payments for current workers failed to pass in the spring legislative session but may come up this fall.
    Cook's unfunded pension gap at $108 billion, Pappas 'stunned' to learn | Greg Hinz | Blogs | Crain's Chicago Business

    if that's what's going on in dem districts, it goes without saying what kasich and snyder and walker and corbett are putting down

    a hundred and eight billion---just WHO are you gonna tax IN CHICAGO to get that kinda money

    no, austerity is irresistable

    it's math, you took math, right?

    watch rahm

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    Re: As Corporate Profits Soar, Workers are Making Less!

    Quote Originally Posted by xpiher View Post
    The EPA meets that requirement FYI.
    You and I disagree.

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