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Thread: More physicians leaving private practices

  1. #61
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    Re: More physicians leaving private practices

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    But you have to purchase health insurance under the new mandate whether you choose to go to the doctor or not. Even if you use homeopathic therapy and/or faith healing or just don't go to the doctor you still have to purchase the health insurance.
    I wouldn't mind allowing people who had some religious or conscientious objection to health care to receive a waiver from the mandate. But as for people who just don't go to the doctor...I think it's fair to assume that they WILL want to go to the doctor in the event of an emergency or severe illness. And thus the mandate is necessary.

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke
    If you were required to purchase auto insurance whether you had a driver's license or not, then it would be a fair comparison.

    Like I said, I am all for UHC, just not a health insurance mandate because it seems to me like it would be a much better fix for helping to reduce the costs of care and ensure that everyone is treated fairly and there is no middleman to mandate a purchase from.
    There's not really any way to make UHC work (at least the type of UHC under consideration) without an insurance mandate. Otherwise people will just game the system by waiting until they get sick to sign up for health insurance.
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    Re: More physicians leaving private practices

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    I wouldn't mind allowing people who had some religious or conscientious objection to health care to receive a waiver from the mandate. But as for people who just don't go to the doctor...I think it's fair to assume that they WILL want to go to the doctor in the event of an emergency or severe illness. And thus the mandate is necessary.



    There's not really any way to make UHC work (at least the type of UHC under consideration) without an insurance mandate. Otherwise people will just game the system by waiting until they get sick to sign up for health insurance.
    but isn't that the Constitutional objection it now faces
    this is not a tax to be levied but a government compelled obligation to purchase something from a vendor
    can the government impose such an obligation upon a citizen to buy something from a third party
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    Re: More physicians leaving private practices

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    but isn't that the Constitutional objection it now faces
    this is not a tax to be levied but a government compelled obligation to purchase something from a vendor
    can the government impose such an obligation upon a citizen to buy something from a third party
    Yes, it can. There is no practical distinction between this and a tax, because no one is actually FORCED to buy health insurance...they just have to pay a fine to the government if they don't. So for all practical purposes, it's the equivalent of giving a tax credit to anyone who DOES purchase health insurance. And we do that sort of thing all the time. You can get a tax credit when you take out a mortgage from a private lender, you can get a tax credit when you hire a moving company (in some circumstances), you can get a tax credit when you pay tuition at a private school, you can get a tax credit when you buy solar panels from a private company, etc. Any of those things could just as easily be construed as a tax upon people who don't do them, since the net effect is exactly the same.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 06-15-11 at 04:39 PM.
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    Re: More physicians leaving private practices

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Oh? Or are we just being dishonest. If I want to drive, I have to have insurance. The government forces me to buy that. The statement was "tThe government can't force people to buy something. " But the government forces us to buy a lot of stuff. Car insurance included. Thanks for playing.
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    Re: More physicians leaving private practices

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Yes, it can. There is no practical distinction between this and a tax, because no one is actually FORCED to buy health insurance...they just have to pay a fine to the government if they don't. So for all practical purposes, it's the equivalent of giving a tax credit to anyone who DOES purchase health insurance. And we do that sort of thing all the time. You can get a tax credit when you take out a mortgage from a private lender, you can get a tax credit when you hire a moving company (in some circumstances), you can get a tax credit when you pay tuition at a private school, you can get a tax credit when you buy solar panels from a private company, etc. Any of those things could just as easily be construed as a tax upon people who don't do them, since the net effect is exactly the same.
    since it is not a tax obligation, i do not find the Constitutional basis to compel this purchase from a third party, potentially a for-profit vendor
    that establishes a precedent which could have negative implications for all citizens

    that a penalty could be levied because one failed to make the government compelled purchase from the third party vendor does not in any way modify the reality that the law obligates the citizen to enter into such transaction with a private concern

    i will be interested to hear/read the government's argument before the supreme court on this matter defending its Constitutional authority to require all citizens to buy from a private vendor what the citizens may not want
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    Re: More physicians leaving private practices

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Oh, BTW, minimum required insurance by state (The first two numbers refer to bodily injury liability limits and the third number refers to the property damage liability limit. The first two numbers in 25/50/20 would mean in an accident each person injured would receive a maximum of up to 25,000 with only 50,000 allowed per accident (ex. 2 people needing 25,000, if the need is more such as 3 people needing 25,000 then whoever files first gets first access to the 50,000 limit and you may be sued for the rest if the accident was your fault!). The last number refers to the total coverage per accident for property damage which in this case would be 20,000.)

    # Alaska 50/100/25
    # Alabama 20/40/10
    # Arkansas 25/50/15
    # Arizona 15/30/10
    # California 15/30/5
    # Colorado 25/50/15
    # Connecticut 20/40/10
    # Delaware 15/30/5
    # Florida 10/20/10
    # Georgia 15/30/10
    # Hawaii 20/40/10
    # Idaho 20/50/15
    # Illinois 20/40/15
    # Indiana 25/50/10
    # Iowa 20/40/15
    # Kansas 25/50/10
    # Kentucky 25/50/10
    # Louisiana 10/20/10
    # Maine 50/100/25
    # Maryland 20/40/10
    # Massachusetts 20/40/5
    # Michigan 20/40/10
    # Minnesota 30/60/10
    # Mississippi 25/50/25
    # Missouri 25/50/10
    # Montana 25/50/10
    # Nebraska 25/50/25
    # New Hampshire 25/50/25
    # New Jersey 15/30/5
    # New Mexico 25/50/10
    # Nevada 15/30/10
    # New York 25/50/10
    # North Carolina 30/60/25
    # North Dakota 25/50/25
    # Ohio 12.5/25/7.5
    # Oklahoma 10/20/10
    # Oregon 25/50/10
    # Pennsylvania 15/30/5
    # Rhode Island 25/50/25
    # South Carolina 25/50/25
    # South Dakota 25/50/25
    # Tennessee 25/50/10
    # Texas 30/60/25
    # Utah 25/65/15
    # Virginia 25/50/20
    # Vermont 25/50/10
    # Washington 25/50/10
    # Wisconsin 25/50/10
    # West Virginia 20/40/10
    # Wyoming 25/50/20

    I don't see any 0 values for New Hampshire nor Wisconsin.
    And I don't see a link validating these numbers. I don't know how many others are wrong, but Louisiana is no longer 10 20 10, its 25 50 something. That's been changed for several years.

  7. #67
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    Re: More physicians leaving private practices

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    that a penalty could be levied because one failed to make the government compelled purchase from the third party vendor does not in any way modify the reality that the law obligates the citizen to enter into such transaction with a private concern
    Only if you think of it in terms of "We want you to do A, and if you don't we're going to penalize you by making you do B." That's pretty subjective. A more neutral reading of the law would be "We're compelling you to do either A or B, take your pick." So no one is being forced to buy private insurance, any more than anyone is being forced to pay the government a fee for being uninsured. You have two distinct options, and you can choose the one that you like better.
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  8. #68
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    Re: More physicians leaving private practices

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Only if you think of it in terms of "We want you to do A, and if you don't we're going to penalize you by making you do B." That's pretty subjective. A more neutral reading of the law would be "We're compelling you to do either A or B, take your pick." So no one is being forced to buy private insurance, any more than anyone is being forced to pay the government a fee for being uninsured. You have two distinct options, and you can choose the one that you like better.

    Wait a minute here. Is it a tax or not? If you are telling me that I have to purchase health Ins. in order to avoid a fine, that is the government forcing me to purchase something. If you are saying that I only have two choices in a supposedly free country how does that add up?

    Face it, there are some real problems with this HC law that Obama is pushing on us.

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    Re: More physicians leaving private practices

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Wait a minute here. Is it a tax or not?
    Essentially, yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac
    If you are telling me that I have to purchase health Ins. in order to avoid a fine, that is the government forcing me to purchase something.
    No. Your options are A) Buy health insurance, or B) Pay the government an additional 2.5% of your income.
    The fact that you think that means "I have to buy health insurance in order to avoid coughing up 2.5% of my income" is nothing more than YOUR subjective interpretation of the law, which isn't found anywhere in the text. You could just as easily view it as "I have to cough up 2.5% of my income in order to avoid buying health insurance."

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac
    If you are saying that I only have two choices in a supposedly free country how does that add up?
    Umm because there are countless things where you only have two choices?

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac
    Face it, there are some real problems with this HC law that Obama is pushing on us.
    Indeed there are. They just aren't the problems you've identified.
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  10. #70
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    Re: More physicians leaving private practices

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Essentially, yes.



    No. Your options are A) Buy health insurance, or B) Pay the government an additional 2.5% of your income.
    The fact that you think that means "I have to buy health insurance in order to avoid coughing up 2.5% of my income" is nothing more than YOUR subjective interpretation of the law, which isn't found anywhere in the text. You could just as easily view it as "I have to cough up 2.5% of my income in order to avoid buying health insurance."



    Umm because there are countless things where you only have two choices?



    Indeed there are. They just aren't the problems you've identified.

    Ok, so after Obama declared for months that this isn't a tax, and no taxes would be raised on the poor, and middle class, he raises them by up to 25% in many cases. So it is a case of choose your lie I guess. Either he was lying when he said it wasn't a tax, or he is lying now.....Either way....

    j-mac
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