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Thread: Republican mainstream flirts with brief default

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    Re: Republican mainstream flirts with brief default

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Well sweet pea, I did reply to you. And no, we don't intellectually subsidize the other global exemplars of socialized medicine. I think you over credit the US here.
    Percent of article in biomedical research in 2009...



    Contextual citation impact...



    Percent of collaboration-based publications...



    (graphs from SciVal analytics)

    We host 11 of the top 20 earning pharmaceutical companies on the world in terms of revenue, income, and R&D.

    If you want to talk about facts, let's talk about this one: Most new drugs are developed in the United States. According to Forbes Magazine, 80 percent of all new drugs are developed in the United States

    A manufacturer that is, say, Canadian doesn't have to redo the R&D cost that US companies bear. Once a product in the United States has been developed and tested and received FDA approval, there is nothing preventing companies outside the United States from making a similar product. A significant portion of savings lie therein. And no, re-importation does not solve that problem.

    Getting into an argument about means testing and administrative cost reduction leads into much murkier waters -- in the future, the United States may ultimately opt for a Medicare-inspired single payer system. I don't dispute that. But for now, in terms of present day deficit reduction, I am not especially willing to experiment with something that alters the balance of the global pharmaceutical market.
    Last edited by Jeezy; 06-08-11 at 04:40 PM.
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    Re: Republican mainstream flirts with brief default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeezy View Post
    Percent of article in biomedical research in 2009...



    Contextual citation impact...



    Percent of collaboration-based publications...



    (graphs from SciVal analytics)

    We host 11 of the top 20 earning pharmaceutical companies on the world in terms of revenue, income, and R&D.

    If you want to talk about facts, let's talk about this one: Most new drugs are developed in the United States. According to Forbes Magazine, 80 percent of all new drugs are developed in the United States

    A manufacturer that is, say, Canadian doesn't have to redo the R&D cost that US companies bear. Once a product in the United States has been developed and tested and received FDA approval, there is nothing preventing companies outside the United States from making a similar product. A significant portion of savings lie therein. And no, re-importation does not solve that problem.

    Getting into an argument about means testing and administrative cost reduction leads into much murkier waters -- in the future, the United States may ultimately opt for a Medicare-inspired single payer system. I don't dispute that. But for now, in terms of present day deficit reduction, I am not especially willing to experiment with something that alters the balance of the global pharmaceutical market.
    Little would change that, and really has little to do with a single payer system. Doing more is not equal to subsidizing btw.

    And countries do do their own, and we take theirs as well. This too is not subsidizing.

    And there is little reason that much would change. BTW, you might look into Univeristy Hospitals the work they do with R&D. They are largely government subsidized.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Republican mainstream flirts with brief default

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Little would change that, and really has little to do with a single payer system. Doing more is not equal to subsidizing btw.
    It has everything to do with single payer, especially one that means-tests. Once you make the system less about profit and more about coverage, you'll have less R&D. It's elementary. The fact that we, as a country, have taken the lions share of initial development costs and then resold these medicines to single payer countries is equivalent to a subsidy. It is not a subsidy in literal terms -- this is certain. But it is an indirect subsidy regardless.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    And countries do do their own, and we take theirs as well. This too is not subsidizing.
    Did I say Canada didn't do their own? I did not. I merely said we did the most, and later on allowed them to mimic it after eating the research cost .

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    BTW, you might look into Univeristy Hospitals the work they do with R&D. They are largely government subsidized.
    Most university research is funded by research councils, charities and industry. In a field like physics, you'd be right. But pharma-research is backed by for-profit companies. Additionally, the existence of the hospitals is often tax-payer funded, but that doesn't speak to research grants. My sister is a PhD candidate at a state university doing immunology/microbiology research. I'm not clueless as to what university hospitals do.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Josie
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    Re: Republican mainstream flirts with brief default

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    IMO, this would be a reckless move. First, the amount of spending reductions necessary to immediately balance the budget would wipe out economic growth, therefore, if sustained they would produce a significant self-inflicted national recession.
    This speaks loudly to the idiocy that is anchoring an economy on government spending.
    Refusing to raise the limit - that is, to force the government to live within its means - is the best thing that could be done, long term, to address our economic, budgetary and monetary issues.
    Last edited by PzKfW IVe; 06-08-11 at 05:20 PM.

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    Re: Republican mainstream flirts with brief default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeezy View Post
    It has everything to do with single payer, especially one that means-tests. Once you make the system less about profit and more about coverage, you'll have less R&D. It's elementary. The fact that we, as a country, have taken the lions share of initial development costs and then resold these medicines to single payer countries is equivalent to a subsidy. It is not a subsidy in literal terms -- this is certain. But it is an indirect subsidy regardless.
    No, I don't think it does. A single payer system can be done more than a few ways, and it really doesn't have to effect profit much at all. Not in this way anyhow. And You agree it is not direct. Would you argue anything we do more of is an indirect subsidy? I wouldn't. And I don't here.

    Did I say Canada didn't do their own? I did not. I merely said we did the most, and later on allowed them to mimic it after eating the research cost .
    I didn't mention Canda at all. I merely point out that this happens all over, and both ways with many countries. We all share what others do.

    Most university research is funded by research councils, charities and industry. In a field like physics, you'd be right. But pharma-research is backed by for-profit companies. Additionally, the existence of the hospitals is often tax-payer funded, but that doesn't speak to research grants. My sister is a PhD candidate at a state university doing immunology/microbiology research. I'm not clueless as to what university hospitals do.
    And government. With pharma-research as well. I'm not clueless either, having spent 10n years at the Univeristy of Iowa hospital and clinics.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Republican mainstream flirts with brief default

    Quote Originally Posted by toddwv View Post
    As I said.

    Any attempts to cut spending without drastic cuts to defense spending is simply not being serious and is nothing more than an attempt at a partisan hack job.
    Any attempts to eliminate the deficit without returning the tax rates to prior sustainable levels is simply not being serious.

    I'll add that implementing "austerity" measures would just be REALLY stupid right now.

    Oh by the way, apparently the Republicans are trying to repeal the Medicare reform measures that attack waste, fraud and abuse without changing benefits. Now why would the Republicans wan't to block nearly $500,000,000,000 in savings for ANY reason?

    Could it be that they are simply not serious about actually cutting the budget and just want to go after wildly popular and hugely successful social programs? Hmmm?
    What we do not have from the Democrats is a plan that fixes things. You can "blah ... blah... blah .... " about things you do not like in the current proposal from one or more Republicans, but that is all the Democrats are doing right now ... demonizing a detailed proposed solution put forth by approximately one-half of the political persuasion, while having no solution themselves !

    As I have noted in past discussions, I have no doubt that a comprehensive plan will include tax increases. Of note is that Ryan's plan, while appearing to reduce rates, also eliminates loopholes and exemptions such that the actual net taxes paid goes up. Reagan did similar things when he "lowered rates", the result being substantial increases in revenue.

    Bottom line: No plan from the Democrats that reaches the mathematical goals.

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    Re: Republican mainstream flirts with brief default

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    No, I don't think it does. A single payer system can be done more than a few ways, and it really doesn't have to effect profit much at all. Not in this way anyhow. And You agree it is not direct. Would you argue anything we do more of is an indirect subsidy? I wouldn't. And I don't here.
    ...nearly all of those ways involve price regulation.

    And what a silly counter-argument. No, not everything is an indirect subsidy. The United States also happens to be the leading corn producer in the world. But the vast majority is consumed domestically, never to be seen again. Corn is finite. If you eat corn, there's no more corn.

    Intellectual labor? R&D? All the overhead that goes into making a good that, only once the research is done, becomes cheaply replicable? Not so much.

    I didn't mention Canda at all. I merely point out that this happens all over, and both ways with many countries. We all share what others do.
    But I did, and I was merely using your logic to show how it really doesn't affect my example.

    And government. With pharma-research as well. I'm not clueless either, having spent 10n years at the Univeristy of Iowa hospital and clinics.
    ...and yet here you are, making it seem like the government was the sole driver behind university hospital pharma research. My point was that the main mover in pharma research are for-profit entities, with research councils, charities, and government also playing a part. Government funding does *shock* exist. But that's much different than what you were implying.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Josie
    Thanks for your awesomeness, Jeezy.

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    Re: Republican mainstream flirts with brief default

    An update from Reuters:

    A default would have severe reverberations in global markets, a top Federal Reserve official said just hours after Fitch Ratings warned it could slash credit ratings if the government misses bond payments.

    St. Louis Federal Reserve Bank President James Bullard told Reuters on Wednesday "the U.S. fiscal situation, if not handled correctly, could turn into a global macro shock.
    Fed: Default would be dangerous; Fitch may cut rating | Reuters

    The ratings agency also noted that were the U.S. to fail to pay $30 billion in maturing Treasury bills on August 4, those specific securities would be downgraded to B+. Were the government to fail to pay an additional $52 billion in maturing Treasury securities on August 15, it would downgrade all classes of Treasury Securities to B+. Afterward, even if the government repaid those securities, it would not restore the U.S. credit rating to AAA through at least the short or medium-term.

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    Re: Republican mainstream flirts with brief default

    it will only be raised with an equal amount of cost cut, I think the GOP has been very clear on that

    nice having the numbers isnt it OBAMA
    I'M VOTING FOR THE WHITE GUY THIS TIME

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    Re: Republican mainstream flirts with brief default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeezy View Post
    ...nearly all of those ways involve price regulation.

    And what a silly counter-argument. No, not everything is an indirect subsidy. The United States also happens to be the leading corn producer in the world. But the vast majority is consumed domestically, never to be seen again. Corn is finite. If you eat corn, there's no more corn.

    Intellectual labor? R&D? All the overhead that goes into making a good that, only once the research is done, becomes cheaply replicable? Not so much.
    Nearly or all? The point is they don't have to involve price regulation.

    However, there is R&D in corn production as well. I live in iowa, remember.

    And once done, it is replicated if successful. Profit is usually made, if successful. There is a risk, and risk is often subzidized by someone. Here that risk is often subidized by more than one area. Government, business, charities, churches, depending on the interest. There is similar processes elsewhere.



    But I did, and I was merely using your logic to show how it really doesn't affect my example.
    Didn't and don't see that. As the process works both ways, us doing more at the moment doesn't mean we're subsidizing them.


    ...and yet here you are, making it seem like the government was the sole driver behind university hospital pharma research. My point was that the main mover in pharma research are for-profit entities, with research councils, charities, and government also playing a part. Government funding does *shock* exist. But that's much different than what you were implying.
    It was never my intention to say sole driver, but only that they contribute. And not insignificantly. R&D wouldn't stop without government involvment, but providing the place and some of the funding helps a lot, and without it, I suspect it would hurt R&D a lot.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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