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Thread: Republican mainstream flirts with brief default

  1. #91
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    Re: Republican mainstream flirts with brief default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeezy View Post
    ...

    From Physicians for a National Health Program?



    Nice googling, breh.
    Are you suggesting they couldn't possibly be correct? Seriously?

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Republican mainstream flirts with brief default

    Quote Originally Posted by Objective Voice View Post
    Now, I've heard different versions of who our creditors are from China being our biggest creditor to Europe and the IMF. I've also heard that it's not the amount that we owe that's the problem but rather it's the current amount we owe in interest on the debt we owe. If it's a matter of paying the interest on our debt, then the lower more detailed explanation would make more sense. But if it's the actually deficit itselt, then it would make sense to pay down our debt. But just as with a credit card, the interest payment doesn't go away. It remains no matter how much debt we pay off. The interest rate may change over time, but that interest payment doesn't go away until the debt is paid. Therefore, I can see both sides of the issue - paying down the debt and also making those interest payments. But here's a question: What if we have the actual payment but not enough to cover the interest? Our inability to pay...isn't that the same as not having enough money to pay your mortgage? I mean, your creditor doesn't care whether you have enough cash just to pay the note; they want the interest on the loan, too. So, what happens if we don't make the interest payment? Does that not make us more of a credit risk?
    The short version is that we currently borrow money to pay the interest on our debt. Stupid, yes, but that's what we do.
    If we cannot borrow money, it is said, we cannot pay the interest on our debt, and so we default on that debt.

    However, this is not necessarily so. Federal revenue is an order of magnitude higher than our interest payment on the debt, and so there's no way to argue that failing to raise the ceiling -necessarily- leads to a default. It will lead to a default if the status quo is maintained, but, again, that doesn't have to happen.

    Depriving the government of the ability to borrow money means that the government must live within its means and spend no more than the revenue it takes in. That only leads to default if you decide that you'd rather default than cut spending.

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    Re: Republican mainstream flirts with brief default

    Quote Originally Posted by danarhea View Post
    Today's Republican mainstream would have been called lunatics by the Republican mainstream 20 years ago.
    Of course, you're the sort of person we should listen to on how the GOP should act, after all... you're a Barry Goldwater Conservative! (who happens to take the oh so solid pro-union approach Barry backed.. )
    Climate, changes. It takes a particularly uneducated population to buy into the idea that it's their fault climate is changing and further political solutions can fix it.



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    Re: Republican mainstream flirts with brief default

    Quote Originally Posted by Objective Voice View Post
    How so? Please explain not just from your own perspective, but provide sources/data.

    I'm asking not to be a pain in the butt; I'm really trying to understand the argument from all sides.
    I was being sarcastic.
    Climate, changes. It takes a particularly uneducated population to buy into the idea that it's their fault climate is changing and further political solutions can fix it.



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    Re: Republican mainstream flirts with brief default

    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post
    Of course, you're the sort of person we should listen to on how the GOP should act, after all... you're a Barry Goldwater Conservative! (who happens to take the oh so solid pro-union approach Barry backed.. )
    glad to see others recognize him as the poser he is.

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    Re: Republican mainstream flirts with brief default

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    From Reuters:



    http://www.reuters.c...E75700720110608

    IMO, this would be a reckless move. First, the amount of spending reductions necessary to immediately balance the budget would wipe out economic growth, therefore, if sustained they would produce a significant self-inflicted national recession. Second, in theory, the Republicans might gain from a short default-large fiscal consolidation deal, but such a deal would not be very likely. A long default would cut against the Republicans. Raising the debt ceiling with little meaningful fiscal consolidation would be perilous, as Republicans would have to defend their fiscal credibility, but that would be a fight they could wage without inflicting harm on the nation. A short default followed by significant fiscal consolidation is not likely, precisely because the Republicans backing such a notion have repeatedly and widely displayed their cards. Hence, the Democrats know that there is a limit to how long they would hold out. As a result, they would not capitulate, and then the Republicans would be faced by a bad choice and an awful one: yield and receive blame for inflicting lasting damage on U.S. credit or persist and receive blame for damaging U.S. credit and engineering a steep recession, possibly of global magnitude.

    To push the U.S. acros a line it has never before crossed will, despite the Druckenmiller hypothesis (which is not widely shared), damage U.S. credit. Once a red line is crossed, few would have reason to believe that political leaders might, when things become even more difficult, cross additional red lines. In effect, the psychological barriers that were assumed to exist and preclude U.S. default would be shattered as far as the markets are concerned. Those responsible for the reckless move will bear full accountability for its consequences. Their electoral prospects would very likely be severely damaged. Perceptions of their fitness to govern would be greatly undermined. They would be viewed as the persons who deliberately damaged American credit. All of those consequences would be deserved.

    In the end, I do expect an agreement to raise the debt ceiling, because no responsible political leader would be willing to take the default course. I do worry that the deal will come with fiscal consolidation that is on the weak side. That will be a fair battle for the 2012 campaign. It will be far more responsible than pushing the U.S. across a red line into technical default on some of its obligations, even if debt payments are made on time.
    i completely agree. defaulting would not only damage us fiscally, it would damage america's reputation in the world, and that's already beat up enough. republicans would take the blame, and rightly so. if we extend the ceiling, and the economy still doesn't improve, the republicans should be in the catbird seat for 2012. as long as, of course, they run someone capable.

    Originally Posted by johnny_rebson:

    These are the same liberals who forgot how Iraq attacked us on 9/11.


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    Re: Republican mainstream flirts with brief default

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Are you suggesting they couldn't possibly be correct? Seriously?
    I mean, what would you have said if I directed you to: National Doctors Tea Party - Doctors Town Hall



    I smell desperation.
    SWAGSWAGSWAGSWAGSWAGSWAGSWAGSWAG
    Quote Originally Posted by Josie
    Thanks for your awesomeness, Jeezy.

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    Re: Republican mainstream flirts with brief default

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    What about medical research?
    Much current medical research is publicly financed through the National Institutes of Health. Under a universal health care system this would continue. For example, a great deal of basic drug research, for example, is funded by the government. Drug companies are invited in for the later stages of “product development,” the formulation and marketing of new drugs. AZT for HIV patients is one example. The early, expensive research was conducted with government money. After the drug was found to be effective, marketing rights went to the drug company.
    Medical research does not disappear under universal health care system. Many famous discoveries have been made in countries with national health care systems. Laparoscopic gallbladder removal was pioneered in Canada. The CT scan was invented in England. The treatment for juvenile diabetes by transplanting pancreatic cells was developed in Canada.
    It is also important to note that studies show that, in the U.S., the number of clinical research grants declines in areas of high HMO penetration. This suggests that managed care increasingly threatens clinical research. Another study surveyed medical school faculty and found that it was more difficult to do research in areas where high HMO penetration has enforced a more business-oriented approach to health care.
    Finally, it appears that the increasing commercialization of research is beginning to slow innovation. Drug firms’ increasing reliance on contract research organizations (and for-profit ethical-review boards) has coincided with a sharp drop in innovative new drugs and a spate of “me-too” drugs - minor variations on old drugs that offer little benefit other than extended patent life.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Single-Payer FAQ | Physicians for a National Health Program
    Yeah....no.
    Medical Progress Today

    Or take the gap between Europe and the U.S. biotech industries: the U.S. biotechnology industry employs twice as many people as the European biotechnology industry (190,000 compared to 96,500) and earns twice as much revenue as Europe (€41.5 billion in the U.S. vs. €21.5 in Europe.). The extra employees and revenues translate into more research: indeed, U.S. bio–techs spend on average three times as much on R&D, according to EuropaBio.

    In the financial realm, American bio–techs have better access to capital than their European competitors. In recent years European biotech companies have had access to only one–fifth of the private equity available to their U.S. rivals, restricting their sources of funding and, consequently, their research. Moreover, U.S. biotechs have access to 10 times as much debt financing as their European counterparts.
    That quote would seem to speak to US medical costs being at least in part due to R&D. The article in its entirety speaks about declining medical innovation in Europe.

    Yes I know, but is it any more lopsided than your source? Probably not.

    This sheds more light on the NIH/Industry relationship and is an informative read but pretty dry.
    http://www.cnie.org/NLE/CRSreports/07Jan/RL32324.pdf

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    Re: Republican mainstream flirts with brief default

    Quote Originally Posted by OpportunityCost View Post
    Yeah....no.
    Medical Progress Today



    That quote would seem to speak to US medical costs being at least in part due to R&D. The article in its entirety speaks about declining medical innovation in Europe.

    Yes I know, but is it any more lopsided than your source? Probably not.

    This sheds more light on the NIH/Industry relationship and is an informative read but pretty dry.
    http://www.cnie.org/NLE/CRSreports/07Jan/RL32324.pdf
    Exactly what do you think would change here:

    To date, the U.S. system of research, development, and commercialization has had a clear impact on the pharmaceutical and biotechnology industries. Policies concerning funding for research, intellectual property protection, and cooperative R&D have played an important part in the economic well-being of these sectors.143 American pharmaceutical firms have “consistently maintained a competitive edge in international markets” and lead in new drug discoveries.144 The U.S. investment in health-related R&D exceeds all other countries145 and has demonstrated a pattern of R&D investment that has increased at approximately twice the rate of R&D growth in Europe.”146
    I ahve not argued that we haven't done better with R&D, which has government support, but that there is no need for to change. And there isn't.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

  10. #100
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    Re: Republican mainstream flirts with brief default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeezy View Post
    I mean, what would you have said if I directed you to: National Doctors Tea Party - Doctors Town Hall



    I smell desperation.
    Well, tea party folks are nutters.

    But what we have here are doctors. If we eliminate anyone who has a POV for no other reason than they have one, there is no one we can quote.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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