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Thread: Officials: Half of force trained on gay ban repeal

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    Re: Officials: Half of force trained on gay ban repeal

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    not fully. bringing women in has always created problems - I would suspect the results of this would be similar.
    Bringing men in has always created problems too. Even heterosexual men. But these types cause problems that you can relate to, or are comfortable with, I guess.
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    Re: Officials: Half of force trained on gay ban repeal

    Moderator's Warning:
    Officials: Half of force trained on gay ban repealAmazing. Navy's back and the baiting by others begin.

    There is a topic here. Navy isn't it. Barack Obama "Getting the job done" isn't it. If it continues here, or in other threads, expect thread bans going out quick. An old poster showing up is not carte blanche to bait and derail

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    Re: Officials: Half of force trained on gay ban repeal

    Quote Originally Posted by tryreading View Post
    Not a requirement. Nobody has to be happy about it. Just follow the rules.
    Or, enlistment can go down the drain.

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    Re: Officials: Half of force trained on gay ban repeal

    Quote Originally Posted by tryreading View Post
    Bringing men in has always created problems too. Even heterosexual men. But these types cause problems that you can relate to, or are comfortable with, I guess.
    if it was an all-female unit prior to, then yes. it's not a comfort issue - you lose all personal space at boot camp. come over to DP chat and ask them about that.

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    Re: Officials: Half of force trained on gay ban repeal

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    And what were most of those problems from.
    sexual tension.

    Let's see. From my experience, the problems arose most from women serving because of women getting pregnant
    nope. fraternization, adultery, and breakdown in unit cohesion pretty much top that list. the dynamic of all-male-groups changes dramatically with the introduction of females; competition and clique-ing take off and brotherhood and cohesion are lost. Men lose focus, jealousy, whispering.... aie.

    i've run into pregancy too, but it's not anywhere near the top of the problems created by females.

    women being treated differently than men due to a cultural belief that women are weaker or should be treated differently
    no. women being treated differently because they do not have penises, but do have places that the penises would like to be (bluntly speaking). flirtation and generally over-personal relationships with seniors is another common issue.

    You guys like to bring up sexual tension between men and women as causing issues
    probably because we are much more aware of it; given that A) the male sex drive is generally more insistent and constant and B) we are the ones who have the ability to see the difference between single-gender and mixed units. Everywhere females go in the military, they are generally part of a mixed-gender unit.

    Are we talking about relationship issues?
    that's definitely part of it - though inter-relationship issues are also problematic.

    You do realize that these can occur whether the people work together or not.
    I went for fully 5 months without seeing a live western woman. trust me, there was no hanky-panky, relationships, or problems stemming from the possibility of such on the FOB. again, this comes from you serving in mixed-gender environments, and working with that set of assumptions.

    Plus, considering the low percentage of gays overall, it is unlikely that there will be enough gay men available in most units for them to start a relationship that could cause problems. And we have rules against having relationships that could cause problems
    yes. and 19-22 year olds who make up the majority of our military are well known for their ability to control their genitalia when rules are around!

    we had 6 females in my shop at Division. 2 of them got busted for adultery. a third got pregnant during her divorce from another dude in the military also going through a divorce who was previously her supervisor. a fourth got busted for fraternization multiple times and the sixth was awesome to the point where I was willing to piss off every member of my own chain of command to make sure she got meritoriously promoted.... which she did..... a couple of days before she found out that her husband (also a Marine) was cheating on her with another female Marine.

    in the meantime, the shop is divided. cliques, whispering, who's ****ing who, who's stabbing who in the back, did you hear what she said about me when they called her in that slut you know she..... good lord, women are horrible in groups.

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    Re: Officials: Half of force trained on gay ban repeal

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    good lord, women are horrible in groups.
    As are men. I had no idea how bad guys were until I spent 7-8 years working nights in an office, and hanging with the guys in the shop on breaks. Holy Hannah. We got nothin on y'all.

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    Re: Officials: Half of force trained on gay ban repeal

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    sexual tension.



    nope. fraternization, adultery, and breakdown in unit cohesion pretty much top that list. the dynamic of all-male-groups changes dramatically with the introduction of females; competition and clique-ing take off and brotherhood and cohesion are lost. Men lose focus, jealousy, whispering.... aie.

    i've run into pregancy too, but it's not anywhere near the top of the problems created by females.



    no. women being treated differently because they do not have penises, but do have places that the penises would like to be (bluntly speaking). flirtation and generally over-personal relationships with seniors is another common issue.



    probably because we are much more aware of it; given that A) the male sex drive is generally more insistent and constant and B) we are the ones who have the ability to see the difference between single-gender and mixed units. Everywhere females go in the military, they are generally part of a mixed-gender unit.



    that's definitely part of it - though inter-relationship issues are also problematic.



    I went for fully 5 months without seeing a live western woman. trust me, there was no hanky-panky, relationships, or problems stemming from the possibility of such on the FOB. again, this comes from you serving in mixed-gender environments, and working with that set of assumptions.



    yes. and 19-22 year olds who make up the majority of our military are well known for their ability to control their genitalia when rules are around!

    we had 6 females in my shop at Division. 2 of them got busted for adultery. a third got pregnant during her divorce from another dude in the military also going through a divorce who was previously her supervisor. a fourth got busted for fraternization multiple times and the sixth was awesome to the point where I was willing to piss off every member of my own chain of command to make sure she got meritoriously promoted.... which she did..... a couple of days before she found out that her husband (also a Marine) was cheating on her with another female Marine.

    in the meantime, the shop is divided. cliques, whispering, who's ****ing who, who's stabbing who in the back, did you hear what she said about me when they called her in that slut you know she..... good lord, women are horrible in groups.
    And I seen the opposite while I was in division with men and women, whether I was one of a few women or the only woman or women made up half the workplace, the problems did not arise from the people sleeping together nearly as much as they did from the things that I mentioned put together, especially men treating women differently because they viewed us as "the weaker sex" or, as one of my chiefs put it to me, "the guys just aren't as reliable" (which is the reason that I ended up holding 4 collateral duties, while some of the guys at my level had none).

    I have seen both work against women. Either the chain of command will give the women supervisory positions and/or collateral duties, and the guys will complain that the women are only getting those because they are women (which was sort of true once in my dept. but the girl was a SPU who got the job because she was a 1st coming to the boat and we were short on 1st classes, it turned out awful because she was horrible and psycho, but she had a Congressman father) or they will make us work harder to earn things than the guys have to work.

    I know of an incident where a guy was talking bad about the women and another guy beat the crap out of him, but honestly, how the hell can you blame that on the women? Are you trying to tell me that those things would never happen without women in the military? I know that isn't true, since we had a guy whose wife divorced him and married his best friend from the ship. (She was never in the military.) Jealousy happens with or without women in the unit. Sexual tension becomes a problem when people let it become a problem. The vast majority of people on ships can go without sex through an entire deployment (not all, but most). Those that can't and get caught, deserve punishment.

    Also, if you are saying that most of the problems are coming from cliques and jealousy, how the hell do you think that will happen with only a few gay guys, even if they beat the statistics, per unit? It wouldn't be the same in numbers, since if you assume that say 3 women are assigned to a division of 100 total. So statistically, out of a hundred people, 3-5 should be gay. Lets round high and say 5, but one of them is one of the women. So now you have 4 gay men, 1 gay woman, 2 straight women, and 93 straight guys. And you are telling me that the problems come from jealousy and sexual tension. But the problem with this is that you must be assuming that a) those gay guys are going to look at the straight ones for companionship (not likely, but possible) and b) everyone is single and/or they do not care enough about the relationships they are in. The numbers do not work to be the same for the sexual tension and especially not the jealousy that you believe you are seeing in your unit with the women. Because the gay guys are most likely going to only be messing with the other gay guys or looking to go outside the unit altogether (which is what most people do) and those 93 straight guys aren't going to be interested in those gay men at all. It is definitely possible that you would have some sexual tension and/or jealousy amongst the straight men and women, but it isn't likely that the same level of tension will exist between the two sexuality groups.
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    Re: Officials: Half of force trained on gay ban repeal

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    So, how were you in the service?
    Oh I'm doing just fine thanks for asking. So since you value a service members opinion let me give you mine, I'm a Platoon leader here in Korea with 57 Soldiers under my control. I recently personally briefed all of them on this possible repeal of DADT, and of course once I was done with my brief I asked for questions. Every question I got had to do with the benefits of gay Soldiers, that being because the military does not recognize any form of homosexual marriage. Meaning, spouses of gay service members receive none of the benefits that spouses of a heterosexual Soldier would receive, including medical benefits, housing, movement of household goods when PCSing to a new duty station, on post privileges, commissary privileges, death benefits should their spouse be killed, etc etc etc.

    The questions were all about how the Army expects Soldiers to be content with this if a man or woman, simply because he's gay, can't be treated on the same level as heterosexual Soldiers. I've had a Soldier approach me to say he thinks he may be gay, he's pissed about this. Other Soldiers asked how the Army is going to screw over their buddies, how they would immediately go to IG (Inspector General) and file a complaint of discrimination. Yes Soldiers are angry, or at the very least think its stupid, but not about the repeal, they are angry that after the repeal gay service members aren't going to get the same benefits as everyone else.

    I did have one guy ask me afterwards if in the future he was billeted with a gay Soldier, if he would be allowed to change rooms, because he didnt want to live with a gay man. I told him its up to the Commander, but Army policy leans heavily towards not moving Soldiers to different rooms because a gay Soldier is present, because they fear it'll encourage more of that behavior. Policy also outright prohibits moving a Soldier because he doesn't want to bunk with a black man for example, for the same reason to discourage that kind of behavior and thinking, I'm sure the policy towards gays will move towards that pretty soon.

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    Re: Officials: Half of force trained on gay ban repeal

    It seems that, on this subject, many are losing a religion. That is, the religion of "military people are barbaric under-educated bigots".

    I didn't realize before how good the repeal of DADT would be for the military (I knew it would be good for people and for units, but I did not see a broad far-reaching impact for the military itself). It has (well, the transition, actually) proven to all the scumbags out there that military people are just like anyone else. They are not bloodthirsty psychopaths bent on murder, and they are not a steemy pot of bigotry.


    I would note that the military is far less racist than the rest of society, I would not be shocked if it also became far less homophobic.
    Last edited by ecofarm; 06-09-11 at 06:17 AM.

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    Re: Officials: Half of force trained on gay ban repeal

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    It seems that, on this subject, many are losing a religion. That is, the religion of "military people are barbaric under-educated bigots".

    I didn't realize before how good the repeal of DADT would be for the military (I knew it would be good for people and for units, but I did not see a broad far-reaching impact for the military itself). It has (well, the transition, actually) proven to all the scumbags out there that military people are just like anyone else. They are not bloodthirsty psychopaths bent on murder, and they are not a steemy pot of bigotry.


    I would note that the military is far less racist than the rest of society, I would not be shocked if it also became far less homophobic.
    I know. Us liberals proven right again.
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