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Thread: Officials: Half of force trained on gay ban repeal

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    Re: Officials: Half of force trained on gay ban repeal

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    According to the Navy MA's chain of command, no it isn't, not for consentual sodomy anyway.

    The Navy at least, is not charging anyone, gay or straight, for consentual sodomy.
    well it is the navy. they just aren't enforcing article 125. The article is still on the books and is still in effect and if you got some hardass, douchebag that really wanted to press it, TPTB would have no choice but to enforce it.

    FWIW, the Army typically turns a blind eye to consentual sodomy as well. but as long as article 125 is on the books, as currently written, the possibility of being charged and discharged for sodomy exists.
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    Re: Officials: Half of force trained on gay ban repeal

    Quote Originally Posted by OscarB63 View Post
    well it is the navy. they just aren't enforcing article 125. The article is still on the books and is still in effect and if you got some hardass, douchebag that really wanted to press it, TPTB would have no choice but to enforce it.

    FWIW, the Army typically turns a blind eye to consentual sodomy as well. but as long as article 125 is on the books, as currently written, the possibility of being charged and discharged for sodomy exists.
    Not according to the official training we received. They specifically mentioned that Article 125 would not be enforced for consentual sodomy (where it wasn't breaking another rule, such as fraternization or adultery). This was in the official repeal training.

    Also, the training also specifically referenced "recent SCOTUS cases" as being a basis for changing how this particular UCMJ law is going to be enforced.
    Last edited by roguenuke; 06-07-11 at 04:57 PM.
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    Re: Officials: Half of force trained on gay ban repeal

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Not according to the official training we received. They specifically mentioned that Article 125 would not be enforced for consentual sodomy (where it wasn't breaking another rule, such as fraternization or adultery). This was in the official repeal training.

    Also, the training also specifically referenced "recent SCOTUS cases" as being a basis for changing how this particular UCMJ law is going to be enforced.
    maybe the navy gets different training than the army then. because the official training we received specifically stated that all current regulations and standards would still be enforced
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    Re: Officials: Half of force trained on gay ban repeal

    Quote Originally Posted by OscarB63 View Post
    maybe the navy gets different training than the army then. because the official training we received specifically stated that all current regulations and standards would still be enforced
    Maybe they don't figure it is really a change if they haven't actually been enforcing it for consentual sodomy anyway.

    I bet you though the first time anyone is brought up on charges involving consentual sodomy, while not violating any other rules, there will be a ****storm made over the incident and the higher brass, including the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs, is not going to be happy about it.
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    Re: Officials: Half of force trained on gay ban repeal

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Maybe they don't figure it is really a change if they haven't actually been enforcing it for consentual sodomy anyway.

    I bet you though the first time anyone is brought up on charges involving consentual sodomy, while not violating any other rules, there will be a ****storm made over the incident and the higher brass, including the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs, is not going to be happy about it.
    as I said, about the only ones I see pushing it are those small minded, pseudo hardasses that everyone thinks is douchebags anyway.
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    Re: Officials: Half of force trained on gay ban repeal

    I have found more information on this. Sodomy can only be used in certain cases, even under UCMJ. A couple of military charges of consensual sodomy have already been overturned due to Lawrence v. TX.

    Sodomy laws in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    As for the U.S. Armed Forces, the Court of Appeals for the Armed Forces has ruled that the Lawrence v. Texas decision applies to Article 125, severely narrowing the previous ban on sodomy. In both United States v. Stirewalt and United States v. Marcum, the court ruled that the "conduct [consensual sodomy] falls within the liberty interest identified by the Supreme Court,"[15] but went on to say that despite the application of Lawrence to the military, Article 125 can still be upheld in cases where there are "factors unique to the military environment" that would place the conduct "outside any protected liberty interest recognized in Lawrence."[16] Examples of such factors include rape, fraternization, public sexual behavior, or any other factors that would adversely affect good order and discipline. Convictions for consensual sodomy have been overturned in military courts under Lawrence in both United States v. Meno[citation needed] and United States v. Bullock.[17]
    So, technically, UCMJ sodomy laws have not been allowed to apply except in those specific cases I mentioned in years, so there would really be "no change".
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    Re: Officials: Half of force trained on gay ban repeal

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    I have found more information on this. Sodomy can only be used in certain cases, even under UCMJ. A couple of military charges of consensual sodomy have already been overturned due to Lawrence v. TX.

    Sodomy laws in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



    So, technically, UCMJ sodomy laws have not been allowed to apply except in those specific cases I mentioned in years, so there would really be "no change".
    so it sounds like they will simply widen the scope to include gays. I know a guy who got kicked out under 125 back in 2006.
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    Re: Officials: Half of force trained on gay ban repeal

    Quote Originally Posted by OscarB63 View Post
    so it sounds like they will simply widen the scope to include gays. I know a guy who got kicked out under 125 back in 2006.
    He probably wasn't kicked out under 125, but rather DADT if it was same sex sodomy. If he was engaging in same sex sodomy then he could still be charged with 125, since it would still be violating another military rule at the same time, until DADT is officially repealed.

    They could not expand the scope to include gays after the repeal because that would be going against the entire point of the repeal. UCMJ rules still must be applied equally to all members of the force. What applies for those involved in opposite sex relations (i.e. consensual sex acts that do not violate other rules) has to apply for those involved with same sex relations.
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    Re: Officials: Half of force trained on gay ban repeal

    I am going to have to correct myself here on new information I found out.

    According to the US Court of Appeals for the Armed Forces, no consensual sodomy, including that between homosexuals, can be reasonably viewed as harmful to the military and/or national interests.

    http://www.aclu.org/files/FilesPDFs/...28filed%29.pdf

    This person's conviction under Article 125 was overturned by the court because the sodomy was consensual.

    So, that guy that you knew that was charged with Article 125 for consensual sodomy could have fought that specific charge (although if it were still same sex sodomy, he could have still been put out under DADT rule).

    This is why the military needs to work a lot harder at putting out information on what is and isn't allowed and/or Congress needs to work at changing the wording of UCMJ rules faster to match what courts have ruled on. I did not know this information at all until the last month or so. It is important that servicemembers know that they do not have to accept punishment for things such as this without appeal, because someone hasn't gotten around to changing the language of a UCMJ law that one US court for the Armed Forces has already ruled part of the law as not being applicable in such circumstances.

    And I hope that all servicemembers on this board will tell their fellow servicemembers not on this board about this particular ruling just in case someone else tries to charge someone with Article 125 for consensual sodomy. At the very least, this case should be brought to the attention of the chain of command and/or any accused personnel.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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    Re: Officials: Half of force trained on gay ban repeal

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    I have yet to meet one person in the military that is happy with gays serving openly in the military...
    Not a requirement. Nobody has to be happy about it. Just follow the rules.
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