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Thread: Officials: Half of force trained on gay ban repeal

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    Re: Officials: Half of force trained on gay ban repeal

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    what? i quoted your post in full.


    but the question stands. if you yourself would feel awkward exposing yourself to a mixed audience, why do people demand that the only reason people in the military could feel the same way is because they must be bigoted?
    That's not what they actually think is the lord's truth.

    That's just the sort of thing they say to polarize the issue.

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    Re: Officials: Half of force trained on gay ban repeal

    I'll post nekked pics, clear it with the mods.

    Everyone will want me, it'll be awesome.

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    Re: Officials: Half of force trained on gay ban repeal

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    That's not what they actually think is the lord's truth.

    That's just the sort of thing they say to polarize the issue.
    it's the sort of thing they post to try to silence dissent, then.

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    Re: Officials: Half of force trained on gay ban repeal

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    or we have to deal with the paperwork side that comes with all of the sexual and discipline issues that we already see in the mixed-gender units.



    you just said that the response would be aggressive. are you honestly going to tell me that that kind of a history won't negatively impact a units' later performance?



    given that the only change that could be introduced now would be in a positive direction, i find this exceedingly unlikely.



    not at all (although the law of numbers says that will happen - certainly our straight males hit on females that aren't interested all the time). i am of the belief that if a gay man is serving openly, that means the other male members of the unit will know he is gay, and that will reduce intimacy and cohesion.



    well it will be better for the units if they do so. but if you are willing to admit this, then why not have come clean with that at the beginning?
    Quote Originally Posted by BDBoop View Post
    Will, it appears your cheese done slid clear off your cracker. You really think a military shower is comparable to posting one's .... seriously, I can't even dignify that thought with a re-type.
    Quote Originally Posted by BDBoop View Post
    Well, since you edited out my quote, I don't feel the need to answer you.
    See your post? See my post quoting you, but missing the bit I quoted? Why did you edit it out?

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    Re: Officials: Half of force trained on gay ban repeal

    Quote Originally Posted by BDBoop View Post
    Well, since you edited out my quote, I don't feel the need to answer you.
    He didn't edit your post, but I would like to know where in Azeroth you are.

    Grinding some city rep, perhaps?

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    Re: Officials: Half of force trained on gay ban repeal

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    what? i quoted your post in full.


    but the question stands. if you yourself would feel awkward exposing yourself to a mixed audience, why do people demand that the only reason people in the military could feel the same way is because they must be bigoted?
    Many people feel uncomfortable getting naked in front of anyone that they aren't intimate with, it doesn't matter what the sex of the people are. I know that I wouldn't feel any more comfortable with being naked in front of a gay guy then I would a straight guy. I would be slightly more comfortable being naked in front of a gay girl though than being naked in front of a gay guy, because I could be attracted to the guy, but not the girl, so I would care more about the way the gay guy saw me than how the gay girl saw me. Not everyone feels this way about it, but most people would still prefer to not be naked in front of anyone they aren't intimate with and/or comfortable with.

    Another example, I would get naked in front of any of my female relatives without a second thought, even my sister who is bi. I would not however get naked in front of any of my male relatives, with the exceptions of my husband and sons (although this is changing), even if they came out as gay. It isn't about attraction, but rather what people are used to. My mother can be naked in front of pretty much anyone without feeling uncomfortable.

    But that works the same way for the guys that you are talking about too. Everyone who joined the military in the last almost 2 decades has been well aware that they would most likely be serving with a gay person in their unit at one point or another (unless they are in complete denial). They should know that even with the compromise that someone who found them attractive could be seeing them naked.

    If you didn't know the sexuality of a man and a woman each in a different room, and you had to go into one of those two rooms to get naked, which would you choose? Which do you think most women would choose? If it was for an exam, which would you rather perform the exam on you? Which do you think most women would rather have do this?
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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    Re: Officials: Half of force trained on gay ban repeal

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Many people feel uncomfortable getting naked in front of anyone that they aren't intimate with, it doesn't matter what the sex of the people are.
    That'd be me. I had to get over it, of course. Every chance I got though, I claimed I was a periodic maniac just so I could use the private showers. I don't remember public showers in basic or AIT.

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    Re: Officials: Half of force trained on gay ban repeal

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    He didn't edit your post, but I would like to know where in Azeroth you are.

    Grinding some city rep, perhaps?
    I'm in the process of moving my toons to Silvermoon, since I found a level 25 guild there. This makes me very much happy. Before that, all my horde toons were on Galakrond, with the bulk of my Quel'dorei toons en route to Silvermoon.

    I thought you quit?

    When I do play, I'm working on getting my 12 80+ toons to 85. I only have one 85 thus far. I play a lot less since I started working on the 16th of last month.

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    Re: Officials: Half of force trained on gay ban repeal

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    or we have to deal with the paperwork side that comes with all of the sexual and discipline issues that we already see in the mixed-gender units.
    The numbers ratios are completely different. There will not be nearly as much, and women and men do not react the same way to harassment, in general. Women do not, in general, have the option of handling the situation on their own, so if they feel they are being harassed, they will either ignore it or tell someone who they believe can handle it, a guy they trust or their chain of command. Guys are much more aggressive, in general, and would be likely to try to handle it on their own or ignore the situation or, possibly, get other guys to help them with the situation. A guy is much less likely to turn someone in for harassment just because it would reflect on them as "weakness", that they couldn't handle it on their own.



    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    you just said that the response would be aggressive. are you honestly going to tell me that that kind of a history won't negatively impact a units' later performance?
    Aggression that is likely happening now, but not reported because if it involved a guy who was gay, he could get kicked out. So he would just be taking the abuse, even in cases where he didn't instigate it, out of fear that it may come to light that he is gay and so he would be punished too.

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    given that the only change that could be introduced now would be in a positive direction, i find this exceedingly unlikely.
    Yes, right, this change is a positive, because it means that discrimination based on sexuality can be brought into the light without fear of discharge. Those who cannot accept this will just have to either pretend, get out, or face punishment. I am quite confident that most of the guys, even in combat units, will just accept the change and move on, since it is unlikely to affect most of them anyway.



    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    not at all (although the law of numbers says that will happen - certainly our straight males hit on females that aren't interested all the time). i am of the belief that if a gay man is serving openly, that means the other male members of the unit will know he is gay, and that will reduce intimacy and cohesion.
    Statistics say that the amount of incidences of harassment due to gay members serving openly will be much lower than that of females serving with males, just from the fact that there are fewer gays serving total than there are women. You apparently either missed or ignored my post on this.


    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    well it will be better for the units if they do so. but if you are willing to admit this, then why not have come clean with that at the beginning?
    What would be best is for everyone in units to get over their fears of the gays and act professionally about this. If they are gay, they should not be hitting on people in their unit, especially not on duty (of course, this should be true for mixed units as well). If a straight guy gets hit on by a gay guy (simply asked out or something like this), then the guy needs to decline and probably explain why such actions are inappropriate, but they shouldn't be acting out aggressively and/or turning someone in for something like this, especially if it happens in off-time. If a person is being harassed by someone else, whether gay or straight, then they need to start taking it up the chain of command. I don't think that everyone will follow this, but there are a lot of people who will or they will just ignore behaviors that they consider to not be harmful.

    Again, though, I don't really believe that we should be allowing discrimination just to let people feel more comfortable. And it is unlikely that this change will truly cause a lot of problems just from the small amount of gays in the military and the fact that most of them will act professionally and most of those working with them will act professionally as well.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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    Re: Officials: Half of force trained on gay ban repeal

    Quote Originally Posted by BDBoop View Post
    That'd be me. I had to get over it, of course. Every chance I got though, I claimed I was a periodic maniac just so I could use the private showers. I don't remember public showers in basic or AIT.
    I don't have a huge issue with getting naked in front of other women, but that doesn't mean I am comfortable doing it, but it definitely helps to have been in the military and had to do it at least during basic. Actually, I don't really have much of an issue getting naked in front of men (besides my brothers and other male relatives, because that just feels weird) depending on why I am getting naked for them. If it is for their pleasure, then yes, it is an issue (I couldn't be a stripper), but if it is for some other purpose, such as my convenience, then it really isn't a big deal.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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