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Tens of thousands protest outside Greek parliament

kaya'08

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Tens of thousands protest outside Greek parliament - Hurriyet Daily News and Economic Review

Tens of thousands of protesters angry about the government's austerity policies demanded Sunday that the heavily indebted country stop paying its creditors.

I dont think the Greek public understands that by not paying its creditors it will be virtually black listed on the bond market...which means Greece will not be able to meet its expenses requirements and be even worse off.

Sure they basically ARE black listed anyway but this will cause irreperable damage to Greece and its relationship with creditors if that where to happen.
 
Tens of thousands protest outside Greek parliament - Hurriyet Daily News and Economic Review

I dont think the Greek public understands that by not paying its creditors it will be virtually black listed on the bond market...which means Greece will not be able to meet its expenses requirements and be even worse off.

Sure they basically ARE black listed anyway but this will cause irreperable damage to Greece and its relationship with creditors if that where to happen.

Oh they understand.. they blame the banks and rich business people and by defaulting said person and companies would loose their shirts. The Greek people are already in pain and can take more, the banks and rich business people have barely been touched so far (relatively speaking) so in many ways they are correct in their accusations.
 
Oh they understand.. they blame the banks and rich business people and by defaulting said person and companies would loose their shirts. The Greek people are already in pain and can take more, the banks and rich business people have barely been touched so far (relatively speaking) so in many ways they are correct in their accusations.

Okay then let them stop paying their creditors see how that works out.
 
Honestly, at this point Greece is probably better off to just default on its debt and bring back the drachma. I don't see any other way out of this for them. There is no possible way that they are ever going to be able to pay down their debt, and the fact that they don't have a currency of their own is certainly not helping the situation. If they default, they'll have a severe recession for a few years; if they don't, they'll have a severe recession indefinitely.

It's a sad situation for them, and there really isn't a good option. But default seems like the least bad. :(
 
Okay then let them stop paying their creditors see how that works out.

Just saying that is what they are saying... it might or might not be rational but that is how they are feeling and saying.
 
Socialism to the extreme..

Reap what you sew.. :)

America is in this same line of countries teetering..


Tim-
 
It is sad really. The mother of Europe now close to the exit. Ehh...
 
Honestly, at this point Greece is probably better off to just default on its debt and bring back the drachma.

Honestly that is not an option that is appealing at all. Going back to the drachma would have devastating consequences for the Greek economy. Plus it is not something that can happen over night. They default as soon as they announce it, and it will take months at best, if not years to go over to the drachma which would be next to worthless when they do. In the mean time they cant pay anything and society collapses.

I don't see any other way out of this for them.

Make the debt long term on the conditions that their tax system gets an overhaul along with other structural (legal) changes that make them more competitive. The problem has always been not enough tax income vs too much spending. Now the spending can be easily fixed, but the lack of tax income can not. The best comment about the Greek tax system is a tip box in a corner of a room. Tax avoidance is a national sport, especially among those with money and the consequences are next to none.

No one wants Greece to default.. well other than the speculators who have been pushing for it.. since they stand to earn billions on a default, and in my opinion anything should be tried to avoid it.

There is no possible way that they are ever going to be able to pay down their debt, and the fact that they don't have a currency of their own is certainly not helping the situation. If they default, they'll have a severe recession for a few years; if they don't, they'll have a severe recession indefinitely.

Debatable, and only if you live in the world where devaluation is a tool that is used. Personally I dont like devaluation since it never ever fixes the underlining problem and is only a short term band-aid. The only sustainable way is to fix the problems!
 
Socialism to the extreme..

Reap what you sew.. :)

America is in this same line of countries teetering..


Tim-

Nothing to do with socialism.. in fact it was conservative economic policies that got them into the problem in the first place.
 
The stupidity of it is that Greece can work it's way out. Their budget is grossly out of touch. Army is way too big, far too many civil servants with a 27-months- a-year salary, corruption on every level. It's sickening, not even the drachme could save them from this crap. They should regard it as a 'window of opportunity' to finally do something about it.

Nope, what truly troubles me is the fact that they were allowed in the EU. I mean, what were these people thinking?
 
Nothing to do with socialism.. in fact it was conservative economic policies that got them into the problem in the first place.

ah huh.. Sure it was. Greek conservatives are light years left of Canaidian conservatives which are themselves many degrees left of American conservatves, so hey, if you think it make you feel better, then have at er.. :)


Tim-
 
Honestly, at this point Greece is probably better off to just default on its debt and bring back the drachma. I don't see any other way out of this for them. There is no possible way that they are ever going to be able to pay down their debt, and the fact that they don't have a currency of their own is certainly not helping the situation. If they default, they'll have a severe recession for a few years; if they don't, they'll have a severe recession indefinitely.

It's a sad situation for them, and there really isn't a good option. But default seems like the least bad. :(

Were Greece to default, its banking system would collapse. The ECB would rightly sever ties with Greece's banking system and repudiate Greek debt instruments as collateral. Greece's switching to the Drachma, even if no transitional issues existed, would not insulate it from the consequences of its default. Greece would remain shut out of the global credit markets and a depression of much greater magnitude than Greece's current economic difficulties would unfold. With a very weak export sector, Greece would find itself locked out of the credit markets for a prolonged period of time.

IMO, painful as it is, Greece needs to proceed with austerity, including structural reform of its health and benefits systems. At the same time, Greece needs to sell state assets to reduce its outstanding debt and greatly step up its efforts to deal with the tax evasion problem. According to a 2008 Articile IV consultation, the IMF concluded that "tax evasion is firmly entrenched" in Greece. Addressing the tax evasion problem might work if Greece did the following:

1. Offered a brief window of amnesty during which the evaders paid all their outstanding tax liabilities with interest no less than the rate Greece is paying its creditors and then committed to paying all future taxes.
2. Those not paying their back taxes or seeking to push their assets outside of Greece would be subject to prosecution and severe penalties (including punitive forfeiture of assets well in excess of their tax liabilities to realign the incentives that now favor pervasive tax evasion).
3. To establish credibility, visible examples related to the prosecution of prominent tax evaders and significant punishment upon convictions would be provided (names, addresses, any businesses with which they were associated, extent of evasion, fines and penalties, jail sentence, etc.).
4. Made changes in the tax system, placing greater emphasis on difficult to evade taxes and introduced more robust withholding, particularly for the self-employed.
 
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Oh they understand.. they blame the banks and rich business people and by defaulting said person and companies would loose their shirts. The Greek people are already in pain and can take more, the banks and rich business people have barely been touched so far (relatively speaking) so in many ways they are correct in their accusations.


And whom do you blame, seeing that you in Spain have a similar problem, and class warfare seem to be en vogue these days among the left.

j-mac
 
Not long ago Greece had military regime. I don't see why not have that again as they default. And how come the drahma could be converted in euros 10 years ago and cannot be converted back? So, the ECB can print money with a snap of a finger but Greece cannot print its own money, huh?
It's the banks, folks.
 
Just saying that is what they are saying... it might or might not be rational but that is how they are feeling and saying.

No forget the rich people....what about the debts acquired from international markets, from Turkish and Greek Cypriot banks who are very exposed to Greek banks? It's how they are feeling sure, but they will suffer more in the long run if they DONT pay back the creditors.

The lack of economic vision on behalf of previous Greek authorities is to blame here and there subsequent lies to the public, no good will be achieved by scapegoating problems in my honest opinion.
 
Not long ago Greece had military regime. I don't see why not have that again as they default. And how come the drahma could be converted in euros 10 years ago and cannot be converted back? So, the ECB can print money with a snap of a finger but Greece cannot print its own money, huh?
It's the banks, folks.

What will this achieve? Here in Europe we do not applaud unmandated rule.
 
What will this achieve? Here in Europe we do not applaud unmandated rule.

Moving to the Euro was a mistake. Just as redistributive methods don't work long term for individuals before someone else's money runs out, the same applies to those methods on a inter country scale as well.

Keynes is a failure


j-mac
 
Moving to the Euro was a mistake. Just as redistributive methods don't work long term for individuals before someone else's money runs out, the same applies to those methods on a inter country scale as well.

Keynes is a failure


j-mac

It sure was a mistake.
 
Tens of thousands protest outside Greek parliament - Hurriyet Daily News and Economic Review



I dont think the Greek public understands that by not paying its creditors it will be virtually black listed on the bond market...which means Greece will not be able to meet its expenses requirements and be even worse off.

Sure they basically ARE black listed anyway but this will cause irreperable damage to Greece and its relationship with creditors if that where to happen.

It would be interesting to see how much of this debt is a result of military rule.
 
It would be interesting to see how much of this debt is a result of military rule.

Under the Junta they actually reduced the amount of civil servants. That's 25% of the workforce these days, 30 billion euri on wages alone.
 
ah huh.. Sure it was. Greek conservatives are light years left of Canaidian conservatives which are themselves many degrees left of American conservatves, so hey, if you think it make you feel better, then have at er.. :)


Tim-

First of all .. every conservative outside the US is light years to the left of American conservatives.

Secondly, Greek conservatives are just like every other conservative politician in the real world. They cut taxes, sell off state companies to friends and allow big business to run amok.. and hello financial crisis!
 
First of all .. every conservative outside the US is light years to the left of American conservatives.

Secondly, Greek conservatives are just like every other conservative politician in the real world. They cut taxes, sell off state companies to friends and allow big business to run amok.. and hello financial crisis!

ah, so it's all us evil conservatives that make these kinds of messes? Problem is that it's not conservative philosphies at work, it's actually conservatives in name only adopting liberal philosophies that get us all into trouble.. :) But thanks for playing.. :)


Tim-
 
Moving to the Euro was a mistake. Just as redistributive methods don't work long term for individuals before someone else's money runs out, the same applies to those methods on a inter country scale as well.

Keynes is a failure


j-mac

No. Moving to the Euro was not a mistake. The world needed a counter weight to the US dollar not to mention the positives of having a currency union for business and competition.

The mistake was allowing Greece into the Euro because Greece was not ready at all and lied about many things.
 
They cut taxes, sell off state companies to friends and allow big business to run amok.. and hello financial crisis!

Why does this sound so familiar....
 
ah, so it's all us evil conservatives that make these kinds of messes? Problem is that it's not conservative philosphies at work, it's actually conservatives in name only adopting liberal philosophies that get us all into trouble.. :) But thanks for playing.. :)


Tim-

Err so giving tax cuts to big business and deregulating is not conservative policies?

And thanks for proving another point about some conservatives... blame everyone else for their own mistakes... just like you saying they are not "real" conservatives because they acted like all other conservative parties that got it wrong over the last 30 years.. /wave GOP and the neo-cons.
 
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