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Thread: NATO Uses Attack Helicopters for First Time in Libya

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    Re: NATO Uses Attack Helicopters for First Time in Libya

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    So...endorsing an attack on Libya because they have a brutal dictator is a 'just war'?
    Sharp of you. But last I checked they were having a civil war, whereas in Iraq we created one.

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    Re: NATO Uses Attack Helicopters for First Time in Libya

    Quote Originally Posted by SE102 View Post
    You see its because IN MY HEAD liberals are HIPPY DIPPIES who would never support war. Therefore IN MY HEAD they appear to be hypocrites when its actually the principles behind the war and the pursuit of JUST WAR that is the issue. Cant get my head around the JUST WAR thing where they think they are better than conservatives for not supporting UNJUST WARS. And btw I dont support this war cause the liberals do....
    You are just wrong. It is NOT TRUE that liberals never support war. I know of NO substantive opposition to Bush I's war to throw Iraq out of Kuwait, nor of any substantive opposition to Bush II's war in Afghanistan (we were attacked by Al Qaeda, they were in Afghanistan, and we went in there to clean them out, just war).

    We reserve the right to NOT SUPPORT dumb wars that are expensive in treasure and life, where there is not a payback that is worth the cost of the war, like Iraq in 2003-2010.

    It is also NOT TRUE that there are only two kinds of people in the US, conservatives and liberals. There is a large segment of independent moderates, that some on the left label as liberals because they listen to Rush too much, and they are wrong.

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    Re: NATO Uses Attack Helicopters for First Time in Libya

    civil war, whereas in Iraq we created one
    One man's civil war is another's multi-party system.

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    Re: NATO Uses Attack Helicopters for First Time in Libya

    you confused me.

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    Re: NATO Uses Attack Helicopters for First Time in Libya

    Quote Originally Posted by SE102 View Post
    Sharp of you. But last I checked they were having a civil war, whereas in Iraq we created one.
    Indeed. Valid point. In Iraq, their brutal dictator slaughtered his people at will, whereas, in Libya, this brutal dictator has been slaughtering people in active rebellion to his government. And we jumped in...on...who's side exactly? We are engaging in the ouster of a government...and thats OK...just cause. Just not in Iraq. Wait...what?

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    Re: NATO Uses Attack Helicopters for First Time in Libya

    On another note:

    Wonder why we are really in Libya.... Wallstreet ripping off the Libyan people with Gadaffis help?



    I wonder if something is misrepresenting Libyas funds or if Gadaffi is a direct part of the collusion.

    Also, you cant help others make war on a country and say you aren't part of the war. If you peel a potato and feed a combatant you are just as much a part of the war as a missle strike or laser painter.
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    Re: NATO Uses Attack Helicopters for First Time in Libya

    Quote Originally Posted by finebead View Post
    Apples and oranges.

    Bush said Iraq had WMD, but Hans Blix went in and inspected and found NONE. Powell went to the UN, said Iraq had WMD, but Powell lied like the rest of the Bush admin. The problem with Iraq was not that we invaded, it was that we invaded under false pretense. Cheney irroneously tried to make the case that Iraq was linked to 9/11, but the 9/11 commission found "no collaborative relationship between Iraq and Al Qaeda".


    Ex-Press Aide Writes That Bush Misled U.S. on Iraq - washingtonpost.com

    That condemnation form Bush's own longtime friend, who could not stand the lies any longer.

    On Libya, there was an uprising going on, that is not a lie. The US chose to support it, and to involve NATO in support of the rebels. You will note, those are NATO attack helicopters, not US.
    It's not apples and oranges. Invasion is invasion. Libya didn't attack the U.S. You can't campaign on one platform and do just the opposite when you get elected, unless of course you want the world to know you are a hypocrite.

    Whether Bush lied or not, even Bill Clinton and much of the world community said Iraq had WMD's and would use them. Don't try to make this Libya situation a Bush thing. It's not, it's an Obama thing.
    Last edited by Μολὼν λαβέ; 06-04-11 at 03:39 PM.
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    Re: NATO Uses Attack Helicopters for First Time in Libya

    In response to the OP:

    1) Anyone who didn't realize that the day this mission moved beyond humanitarian objectives was the day it started, needs to pay more attention

    2) Obama =/= NATO. Just sayin'

    3) I'm not sure what the presence of attack helicopters has to do with anything. I don't think they are ours (American).
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
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    Re: NATO Uses Attack Helicopters for First Time in Libya

    I don't remember if it was day 1, but when euro countries recognized the transitional government as the legitimate government of Libya and many in NATO flat-out said that Gaddafi had to go...

    Does it seem reasonable for those countries to declare that Gaddafi is, once again, the legitimate government of Libya?


    Quote Originally Posted by Risky Thicket View Post
    I'm confused.
    It appears so.

    increased hostile actions in Pakistan and has attacked Libya and now has troops in-country there.
    Now has troops in country where?

    Anyway, regarding Pakistan:

    Ilyas Kashmiri, a top Pakistani militant and senior Al Qaeda operative, reportedly has been killed in a US drone strike in the tribal territory of South Waziristan, according to press reports and a statement from the group he headed.

    Kashmiri is believed to be behind some of the deadliest attacks in India and Pakistan, including a 2009 suicide attack on Pakistan’s spy agency and attacks on US forces in Afghanistan.

    He is the operations chief of a group called Harakut-ul Jihad Islami, which has some 3,000 militia members and is classified by the US as a terrorist organization tied to Al Qaeda, Lashkar-e-Taiba, and the Punjabi Taliban.

    A Newsweek profile headlined “Is Ilyas Kashmiri the New Bin Laden?” said he “has the experience, the connections, and a determination to attack the West – including the United States—that make him the most dangerous Qaeda operative to emerge in years.”
    http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Militar...S-drone-attack

    I'm not sure about that source. If true, Obama is doing well in Pakistan.
    Last edited by ecofarm; 06-04-11 at 03:51 PM.

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    Re: NATO Uses Attack Helicopters for First Time in Libya

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    Indeed. Valid point. In Iraq, their brutal dictator slaughtered his people at will
    In the 90s where NATO and the UN established no fly-zones and stop the killings (largely). Had we gone in during the 90s, there wouldn't of been much of a valid complaint. Timing matters

    whereas, in Libya, this brutal dictator has been slaughtering people in active rebellion to his government. And we jumped in...on...who's side exactly? We are engaging in the ouster of a government...and thats OK...just cause. Just not in Iraq. Wait...what?
    Your facts are a little wrong. The rebels took refuge in towns that tacitly supported their cause and then were bombed and sieged.

    Quote Originally Posted by dirtpoorchris View Post
    Also, you cant help others make war on a country and say you aren't part of the war. If you peel a potato and feed a combatant you are just as much a part of the war as a missle strike or laser painter.
    Total war means everyone is a target, that means terrorist can be justified for killing anyone.

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    3) I'm not sure what the presence of attack helicopters has to do with anything. I don't think they are ours (American).
    They are not, people obviously haven't been paying attention to international politics or are being willfully ignorant. The helicopters are NATOs and the rebels have been asking for NATO to either give them to the rebels or use them with in a coordinated effort with the rebels. The reason being is that attack helicopters are better for the theater and would cause less collateral damage and/or civilian/rebel casualties.

    Repubs just want to attack Obama for anything. Granted, we should not be directly promoting regime change. I'm not sure if the objectives could have been met any other way though.

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