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Thread: RT presenter choked by police

  1. #111
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    Re: RT presenter choked by police

    Quote Originally Posted by Cole View Post
    .

    The debate here is getting a little distorted. A law was established after a Mob Dance occurred several years ago. Don't know the details of that situation but the event resulted in a new rule/regulation/statute that stated no dancing in the sites/memorials on the national mall.

    Am suspecting there are rules against playing loud boomboxes, riding bicycles, sleeping, alcohol, barbeque grills, etc. in these national monuments. Goal is to keep the environment safe and serene for the visitors to the landmarks. People come from around to world to visit/see these revered structures and providing a calm peaceful ambiance is not really asking too much.

    The arguments that these few "dance protestors" where causing no harm isn't really valid. It is difficult to make laws with caveats. "Well you can only dance if it is a slow quiet dance". "Well you can only set up a barbeque grill if you keep the smoke down, and don't turn up the boombox very loud".

    The national mall is special place and a destination for travelers from across the globe. Keeping the monuments peaceful, orderly, and quiet is a reasonable goal. Again, the dance rule was the outcome of an earlier mob dance that was determined to be disruptive. This isn't really all that complex.


    .
    Asking for calm and peaceful is not asking much. Are you implying that their dancing is not calm and peaceful?

    If it's too difficult for those to make a law that protects the innocent, they should not be making laws. The Father Of All Laws would be to protect the innocent and should not be contradicted by any law that follows from it. THis outcome clearly shows an unnecessary physical assault upon peaceful people.
    Last edited by empireofreason; 05-30-11 at 12:18 AM.

  2. #112
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    Re: RT presenter choked by police

    Quote Originally Posted by empireofreason View Post
    The mentality of this law enforcement is all you need to put a Jew in an oven. The rule of law is more important than common sense. It's idiots like these that make a Holocaust possible. There was no crime committed. The constitution or law is irrelevant when judging a person's action in terms of crime. One must only ask, what harm can be proven? Where there is no harm, there can be no crime. These idiot cops are a sorry excuse for a human being.
    Quote Originally Posted by empireofreason View Post
    The implication is that they follow orders and the specific orders are to use force against people who are in no way harming others. Do you find this humerous?

    The two principles are identical in both situations. You compared smoking to dancing, one is harmful, the other isn't. I'm afraid you are the one failing to compare things in an appropriate manner.
    Quote Originally Posted by empireofreason View Post
    Now you want to take me on. No more strawman please. Trolls use strawman.



    Strawman. Never used hate. Never hated on cops. This is continued use of Strawman.



    Oh, now since I haven't mentioned the entirety of current world events where atrocity is occurring, I'm implied to be wrong. According to your logic, you are wrong because you have ignored all current events containing atrocity. Why didn't you mention all of them?


    I called who a Nazi? Strawman. BAck up your claim, with a quote, or fall into the category of Strawman. Calling a person a Troll is often used by those who are loosing the debate. The phrase Grasping at Straws has an origin.



    This law is not relevant. Proving this law is not relevant. It is commonly know in that analogy that Nazi's only followed orders and committed crimes against innocent Jews. It is a principle that is being pointed out. It doesn't need to have evidence. You simply just need to understand the principle. So human communication can occur. I don't have to prove the Holocaust to make that point relevant. Ok? Proving that the law exists is off topic.


    Don't bother me with such irrelevant nonsense.
    You said that cops who arrest people for violating the law are the kinds of people who make a Holocaust possible. If you would like to retract that statement and the “Jews in an oven” statement, we can move on or you can continue to attempt to defend your comparisons.

    Like I said the first time around, you lost the argument when you violated Godwin’s Law. I have been gracious enough to explain the absurdity of such a claim and to allow you an opportunity to retract these ludicrous statements.

    As for my questions to you about Islam, your politics and whether you believe in GOD, I was simply trying to figure out where you are coming from.

    As for whether or not the police in this action were enforcing the law or “just following orders" is totally relevant to the topic. You compared them to Nazis who were not following the law but were “just following orders” when they murdered people by the millions.

    If you think a few cops who arrest a few people for breaking the law requires comparison to the holocaust to make your point, feel free to make it. Thus far all you have done is make yourself look like a fool for the comparison and more so by trying to defend it so have at it. Make your fresh new “non-Nazi comparison” point and dazzle us with your brilliance.
    Last edited by GPS_Flex; 05-30-11 at 12:56 AM. Reason: Clarity

    "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."
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    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    It would seem that the constitution is just a god damn piece of paper, to be trotted out when expedient.

  3. #113
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    Re: RT presenter choked by police

    Quote Originally Posted by empireofreason View Post
    The mentality of this law enforcement is all you need to put a Jew in an oven. The rule of law is more important than common sense. It's idiots like these that make a Holocaust possible. There was no crime committed. The constitution or law is irrelevant when judging a person's action in terms of crime. One must only ask, what harm can be proven? Where there is no harm, there can be no crime. These idiot cops are a sorry excuse for a human being.
    Quote Originally Posted by empireofreason View Post
    The implication is that they follow orders and the specific orders are to use force against people who are in no way harming others. Do you find this humerous?

    The two principles are identical in both situations. You compared smoking to dancing, one is harmful, the other isn't. I'm afraid you are the one failing to compare things in an appropriate manner.
    Quote Originally Posted by empireofreason View Post
    Asking for calm and peaceful is not asking much. Are you implying that their dancing is not calm and peaceful?

    If it's too difficult for those to make a law that protects the innocent, they should not be making laws. The Father Of All Laws would be to protect the innocent and should not be contradicted by any law that follows from it. THis outcome clearly shows an unnecessary physical assault upon peaceful people.
    I’m sorry but you aren’t doing a very good job of explaining what it is you are upset with. Is it the law you have a problem with or is it that you think the police were too violent with the arrests they made?

    "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."
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    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    It would seem that the constitution is just a god damn piece of paper, to be trotted out when expedient.

  4. #114
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    Re: RT presenter choked by police

    Quote Originally Posted by GPS_Flex View Post
    You said that cops who arrest people for violating the law are the kinds of people who make a Holocaust possible. If you would like to retract that statement and the “Jews in an oven” statement, we can move on or you can continue to attempt to defend your comparisons.
    I stand by it. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you are confused with my point and you are not trolling my contribution. The purpose of the analogy is not the details, it's the principle. I could have used a magical creature and it would not have mattered. Just as long as I point out some people follow orders and by their actions harm innocent people. That's the main point.

    Incidentally, without it, you can't have a Holocaust. But, I will not to argue this because it's not relevant to my point and it would take some time to explain based upon your previous method of argumentation. I'd rather just stick with one thing.


    Quote Originally Posted by GPS_Flex View Post
    Like I said the first time around, you lost the argument when you violated Godwin’s Law. I have been gracious enough to explain the absurdity of such a claim and to allow you an opportunity to retract these ludicrous statements.
    You misunderstand Godwin's Law. Godwin's Law is not a fallacy. It's not even a law. You can't violate it. It just suggests two significant things: that Hitler would at one point be brought up and that using Hitler inappropriately will diminish ones argument.

    That fact that it was brought up by me, doesn't in and of itself create a fallacy. I used it appropriately, because I simply wanted to point out 'just following orders' where innocent people are harmed. Jews, Hitler, Cops, Monument, Dancing, really have nothing to do with that principle. They are only mediums to express a point.

    Quote Originally Posted by GPS_Flex View Post
    As for my questions to you about Islam, your politics and whether you believe in GOD, I was simply trying to figure out where you are coming from.
    What did you figure out? Should you be arrested for dancing around the point involving a monument?

    Quote Originally Posted by GPS_Flex View Post
    As for whether or not the police in this action were enforcing the law or “just following orders" is totally relevant to the topic. You compared them to Nazis who were not following the law but were “just following orders” when they murdered people by the millions.
    Again, analogies are drawn for points to form communication. Don't confuse the details of an analogy with the point it conveys. Nazis, Cops, murder by the millions, these details are not relevant. I have had to repeat one too many times, I'm beginning to hear an echo.

    Quote Originally Posted by GPS_Flex View Post
    If you think a few cops who arrest a few people for breaking the law requires comparison to the holocaust to make your point, feel free to make it. Thus far all you have done is make yourself look like a fool for the comparison and more so by trying to defend it so have at it. Make your fresh new “non-Nazi comparison” point and dazzle us with your brilliance.
    An argument is only brilliant if you don't use Hitler. Unclever to say the least.

    It is the best analogy and clearest analogy we have in contemporary analogies for pointing out people "by only following orders, harm innocent people". The magnitude of evil is irrelevant. I don't need to find some comparative magnitude that fits molestation and assault of peaceful dancing people to convey a point. Often when children are being read a story by their parents that give a moral lesson such magnitudes in fantasy are used. But the moral lesson at the end is the all important point being made. A wise child can distinguish the fantasy from the principle. A foolish child will argue the insignificant details saying, "this can't happen, that can't happen, trees don't grow that big, etc., etc.," and miss the entire point.

    Many people have the authority, the constitutional right and go ahead to do things. I don't disagree that rights exist, but in the end, if you exercise those rights and you harm an innocent person, you have not only exercised your rights, but committed a crime due to the result of your actions. Yelling fire in the theatre is legal expression, but not the harm that it may cause.

    I'm not calling you a fool like you have done me, but I would be foolish at this point to continue this further because I'm confident I've made my point, so I'm out.

  5. #115
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    Re: RT presenter choked by police

    Quote Originally Posted by empireofreason View Post
    I stand by it. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you are confused with my point and you are not trolling my contribution. The purpose of the analogy is not the details, it's the principle. I could have used a magical creature and it would not have mattered. Just as long as I point out some people follow orders and by their actions harm innocent people. That's the main point.

    Incidentally, without it, you can't have a Holocaust. But, I will not to argue this because it's not relevant to my point and it would take some time to explain based upon your previous method of argumentation. I'd rather just stick with one thing.




    You misunderstand Godwin's Law. Godwin's Law is not a fallacy. It's not even a law. You can't violate it. It just suggests two significant things: that Hitler would at one point be brought up and that using Hitler inappropriately will diminish ones argument.

    That fact that it was brought up by me, doesn't in and of itself create a fallacy. I used it appropriately, because I simply wanted to point out 'just following orders' where innocent people are harmed. Jews, Hitler, Cops, Monument, Dancing, really have nothing to do with that principle. They are only mediums to express a point.


    What did you figure out? Should you be arrested for dancing around the point involving a monument?



    Again, analogies are drawn for points to form communication. Don't confuse the details of an analogy with the point it conveys. Nazis, Cops, murder by the millions, these details are not relevant. I have had to repeat one too many times, I'm beginning to hear an echo.



    An argument is only brilliant if you don't use Hitler. Unclever to say the least.

    It is the best analogy and clearest analogy we have in contemporary analogies for pointing out people "by only following orders, harm innocent people". The magnitude of evil is irrelevant. I don't need to find some comparative magnitude that fits molestation and assault of peaceful dancing people to convey a point. Often when children are being read a story by their parents that give a moral lesson such magnitudes in fantasy are used. But the moral lesson at the end is the all important point being made. A wise child can distinguish the fantasy from the principle. A foolish child will argue the insignificant details saying, "this can't happen, that can't happen, trees don't grow that big, etc., etc.," and miss the entire point.

    Many people have the authority, the constitutional right and go ahead to do things. I don't disagree that rights exist, but in the end, if you exercise those rights and you harm an innocent person, you have not only exercised your rights, but committed a crime due to the result of your actions. Yelling fire in the theatre is legal expression, but not the harm that it may cause.

    I'm not calling you a fool like you have done me, but I would be foolish at this point to continue this further because I'm confident I've made my point, so I'm out.
    I must have missed the part where you made your non-Nazi point explaining how it is a bad thing for the police to follow orders.

    I’m giving you every chance I can to salvage a little dignity here. If you can’t explain why it is a bad thing for our police to follow orders with your next post, we are done.

    "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."
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    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    It would seem that the constitution is just a god damn piece of paper, to be trotted out when expedient.

  6. #116
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    Re: RT presenter choked by police

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Patriot View Post
    If a law is unjust, a man is not only right to disobey it, he is obligated to do so. - Thomas Jefferson

    Such wise words...
    Isn't part of civil disobedience the willingness to accept the punishment that goes along with such actions?

    One has to wonder whether a regulation against dancing was worth it. I suppose to them it must have been.
    "Donald Trump is a phony, a fraud... [he's] playing the American public for suckers." Mitt Romney

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    Re: RT presenter choked by police

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    Isn't part of civil disobedience the willingness to accept the punishment that goes along with such actions?

    One has to wonder whether a regulation against dancing was worth it. I suppose to them it must have been.
    Yes, you have to accept the punishment that goes with it since it shows how unjust the law is.

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    Re: RT presenter choked by police

    This sounds like an idiotic non-story. (unless I'm missing something)

    1) Did they have a permit? (flash mob = no)

    2) Then get the hell off our Memorial you idiots. Arrest their ass and toss them in jail. Give them a good beat down when the cameras are off.

    3) WTF is RT?

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    Re: RT presenter choked by police

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    Being thrown on the ground "hurts" in any other situation with any other person, it would be assault and battery.

    There should of been no arrest, there was no victim in a crime.
    It's totally wrong.
    Although the law is a very foolish one, the police MUST do their jobs. The one guy was resisting arrest and being difficult.

    Its one thing to protest but its another to break another law and get a resisting arrest slapped on your criminal record. Protest and get arrested but dont give the police a hard time. Those people were ass-clowns.
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    Re: RT presenter choked by police

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    Being thrown on the ground "hurts" in any other situation with any other person, it would be assault and battery.

    There should of been no arrest, there was no victim in a crime.
    It's totally wrong.
    We were the victims. That's a national monument, federal park land. People visiting the monument have an expectation of safety.

    Get a permit or use a free speech zone. But don't inconvenience other people for your own comedy show.

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