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Thread: O'Reilly ticks off View hosts Behar and Goldberg

  1. #151
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    Re: O'Reilly ticks off View hosts Behar and Goldberg

    Quote Originally Posted by SheWolf View Post
    Your co worker sounds somewhat like my father.. except my dad is younger. I personally want to see Turkey in the EU and align with Europe more. I don't like that Angela Merkle is against it. There are so many Turkish people still in Germany today, and have been stateless since going there to rebuild their country. I lived in Germany for a little while myself.. but I have no personal complaints. I like the country. I just think the Turkish people should have some form of citizenship or voice, if not in Germany then at least through the EU.. It's not fair of Germany to block it every way possible.
    It seems to me that most countries in the world are based on tribal cohesion that goes back to at least the Middle Ages and, while they may officially accept immigrants from other countries and former colonies, those immigrants are never completely accepted as German, French, Dutch, Japanese, or whatever. The US, Canada, Australia and New Zealand are different in that their societies are built on acceptance of ideals rather than ethnic background, and it is much easier for a newcomer to be accepted - provided they adopt the social norms of their new home.

    For an excellent discussion of minorities and assimilation, I highly recommend Thomas Sowell's collection of essays Black Rednecks and White Liberals.

    One of the major obstacles to assimilation is the misguided attempt of some to promote "multiculturalism" which facilitates the creation of ghettos that isolate the newcomers from mainstream life and delay the assimilation. The existence of those ghettos throughout Europe is now a serious problem, and Angela Merkel is the only leader so far with the courage to identify it as such and attempt to deal with it. The absurd demand of some of these ghettos that they be allowed to apply their own version of civil law within their enclaves is completely unacceptable, and the fact that a few countries have allowed it by default in some areas is simply an abdication of sovereignty for which they will pay dearly in the future.

    Everyone in the world is either an immigrant or the descendant of immigrants, even those we call "natives" (whose immigration history is lost in the mists of the past). Here in the US we recognize this, mostly I suppose because so many of us are descended from recent immigrants and we have heard stories from family members who suffered discrimination against Irish, Italians, Japanese, Jews or whatever. Now we are all Americans who get along insofar as we follow the social norms and respect the ideals set out in the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution, and we accept as one of us those newcomers who will do the same.

    Those who express contempt for our ideals or flaunt the social norms of courtesy are not accepted so easily, and incidents like the flying imams in Minneapolis set up all sorts of red flags. The contempt for the country and its sensibilities demonstrated by the proposal to build a mosque near Ground Zero (and named Cordoba House, no less!!) brings shame and contempt upon the whole group these jerks claim to represent. I hope that true American Muslims will convince these provocateurs to abandon their plans and work instead to restore Islam to a respectable position in the world.
    "We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress & the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution, but overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution."
    - Abraham Lincoln

  2. #152
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    Re: O'Reilly ticks off View hosts Behar and Goldberg

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    CP, if you say, as he has, that the community center shouldn't be built due to 9/11, something done by Al Qaeda, terrorist, then you are comparing all muslims to terrorist.
    1. that's not what you claimed. what you claimed was that O'Reilly and myself were arguing that simply being a muslim made one a terrorist. either cite it for me, or you owe myself (and O'Reilly, but i doubt you talk to him) an apology. even for someone as experienced as wriggling out of being caught and moving the goalposts as yourself this switchup isn't going to fly.

    2. no, it doesn't mean that at all.

    3. if you had bothered to read the thread, you would note that there are two issues that are insulting about this mosque: 1. it's location and 2. the particular beliefs practices and connectsions of its' leadership.
    Iraq is not a perfect place, but we’re leaving behind a sovereign, stable, and self-reliant Iraq, with a representative government... In Afghanistan we’ve broken the momentum of the Taliban... And around the globe, as we draw down in Iraq, we have gone after al Qaeda so that terrorists who threaten America will have no safe haven. - Barack Obama

  3. #153
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    Re: O'Reilly ticks off View hosts Behar and Goldberg

    Quote Originally Posted by Diogenes View Post
    Those who express contempt for our ideals or flaunt the social norms of courtesy are not accepted so easily, and incidents like the flying imams in Minneapolis set up all sorts of red flags. The contempt for the country and its sensibilities demonstrated by the proposal to build a mosque near Ground Zero (and named Cordoba House, no less!!) brings shame and contempt upon the whole group these jerks claim to represent. I hope that true American Muslims will convince these provocateurs to abandon their plans and work instead to restore Islam to a respectable position in the world.
    exactly. these people are who we need more of.
    Iraq is not a perfect place, but we’re leaving behind a sovereign, stable, and self-reliant Iraq, with a representative government... In Afghanistan we’ve broken the momentum of the Taliban... And around the globe, as we draw down in Iraq, we have gone after al Qaeda so that terrorists who threaten America will have no safe haven. - Barack Obama

  4. #154
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    Re: O'Reilly ticks off View hosts Behar and Goldberg

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    exactly. these people are who we need more of.
    Agreed, in spades. When the Flying Imams made noises about suing the passengers who had complained about their misbehavior, Jasser stepped forth to create an aid fund to pay the passengers' legal defense fees (which probably played a large part in getting the arrogant ones to back off). He has done more to demonstrate the existence and value of moderate Muslims than Rauf or CAIR can ever imagine doing, and his web site is well worth following.
    "We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress & the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution, but overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution."
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    Re: O'Reilly ticks off View hosts Behar and Goldberg

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    i have liked, gotten along with, trusted, and literally placed my life in the hands of (and in turn, risked my life for) many Muslim individuals.

    i do not trust the Islamist advocacy movements in the West, however; they have too often proved to be merely funneling groups (or apologists) to dangerous Islamist elements both here and abroad.



    i've served with them; we were colocated with and responsible for training both Iraqi Army and Iraqi Police



    quite the contrary; i had many positive experience with them as well as many negative experiences. when it comes to hospitality, their culture has ours beat to the point where it's almost embarrassing. my lord, what a spread they would make at the house meetings; it put me onto organic food for the rest of my life. Iraqi Police worked under conditions that you and I can't even imagine: as a member of the military, the worst that would happen to me is that I get killed. Iraqi Police faced the daily very realistic threat that, instead of them dying, someone would torture their family to death in retaliation for them standing up. Some of our IP's got caught alone at night; we would find pieces of them scattered across the city; brave men who had faced and paid a tab you and I can't even imagine in order to give their people some peace and security.

    do you have anything that you would be willing to risk your children being tortured to death for? yet they were willing to face that nightmare in order to protect their neighborhoods. I admit, I love my country, but it would be a strong temptation to just move rather than lose my kids.



    well i have also met and interacted with the True Believers; the Islamists, members of AQI, etc. If ever you didn't believe there was such a thing as Evil in the world; that kind of experience would cure you.



    yup, that's there too. It depends on where you are and who you are dealing with. In Afghanistan our biggest hamperence with regards to the locals is that the people think they can't trust us to protect them.... seems our Commander In Chief keeps making noises about pulling out in 2011...



    i don't hate muslims. but i recognize what Islamism is, and I am aware of both it's pull to the general muslim population, and the threat that that represents to a weakened West.
    But your concept of Islam comes from a war zone.. no offense. It's just that it's different for me and children who have eastern, Muslim parents but are Americans. I don't identify with any of those things... I wasn't born there, and ever lived there. They are not American. This issue is about American Muslims, and I don't see the the Muslim people the same as you. I have had my experiences in America..

  6. #156
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    Re: O'Reilly ticks off View hosts Behar and Goldberg

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    1. that's not what you claimed. what you claimed was that O'Reilly and myself were arguing that simply being a muslim made one a terrorist. either cite it for me, or you owe myself (and O'Reilly, but i doubt you talk to him) an apology. even for someone as experienced as wriggling out of being caught and moving the goalposts as yourself this switchup isn't going to fly.

    2. no, it doesn't mean that at all.

    3. if you had bothered to read the thread, you would note that there are two issues that are insulting about this mosque: 1. it's location and 2. the particular beliefs practices and connectsions of its' leadership.
    There is nothing that links the people building the community center to 9/11 except a misguided notion that they're muslim, so they must be terrorist. I'm sorry, cp, but I owe you and O'Reilly nothing. Nor have I moved any goal post.

    1) Location. If not linked to those who attacked us, what possible reason would there be for location being a concern? Seriously CP, don't hide or skirt. No one building the community center has anything to do with 9/11, so location should have no bearing. None. Unless you're linking them to the terrorist who attacked. You can't pretend the logic behind your complaint doesn't exist.

    2) Again, another red herring. The leaders of this have a very moderate and open view. If you're refering to the efforts to mislead people on his views, remember, I can read. I'm not as easily fooled as a Fox viewer.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

  7. #157
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    Re: O'Reilly ticks off View hosts Behar and Goldberg

    Quote Originally Posted by SheWolf View Post
    But your concept of Islam comes from a war zone.. no offense.
    none taken because my concept of Islam only comes partly from service in that war zone. I also study the history of that faith and region of the world academically (if you like i can post for you the best case i have ever tried to make demonstrating how conceptually how representative government can anchor itself in Islamic history and theology), and interact with them in their application in other settings; for example i spent about a year and a half as a member of a forum like this one that was dedicated to Shia Muslims; conversing, debating, comparing, contrasting; so on and so forth.

    This issue is about American Muslims, and I don't see the the Muslim people the same as you.
    clearly. the question is which one of us is closest to the true matter of the thing?

    I have had my experiences in America..
    ? what. are you now going to claim that because you've seen one or a few events that contained bigotry that that is some kind of broad brush you can use to paint all those who disagree with you?
    Iraq is not a perfect place, but we’re leaving behind a sovereign, stable, and self-reliant Iraq, with a representative government... In Afghanistan we’ve broken the momentum of the Taliban... And around the globe, as we draw down in Iraq, we have gone after al Qaeda so that terrorists who threaten America will have no safe haven. - Barack Obama

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    Re: O'Reilly ticks off View hosts Behar and Goldberg

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    There is nothing that links the people building the community center to 9/11 except a misguided notion that they're muslim, so they must be terrorist.
    that is absolutely incorrect, as demonstrated by your complete inability to post even one instance of someone ever actually utilizing that line of reasoning. it is no more legitimate than me saying if you opposed the invasion of Iraq you must hate America, because i say so.

    but i would love to see your line of reasoning on how, for example, the American Islamic Forum for Democracy are exhibiting the misguided notion that because Iman Rauf is a muslim, he must be a terrorist?

    obviously Dr. Zhudi Jasser is an anti-Islamic bigot, right?

    Jasser founded AIFD in the wake of the 9/11 attacks in order to provide a Muslim American voice that would genuinely advocate and defend the founding principles of the U.S. Constitution. He has taken the fight against radical Islam to heart and sees it as a responsibility of all “true” Muslims. Where many U.S.-based Islamic organizations, such as CAIR and the Islamic Society of North America, claim to support the U.S. Constitution but provide dodgy answers and shoddy excuses for terrorism when the rubber meets the road, Dr. Jasser’s AIFD is based on the founding principles of the United States. Where CAIR’s rhetoric tends to create a tension between Americans and its Muslim members, the rhetoric of Jasser and AIFD refers to Americans as an “us” and not a “them.”

    “I have always looked upon myself, long before 9-11, as a Jeffersonian Muslim, if you will,” Dr. Jasser answers when asked about his identification as a Muslim. “Along with the ideas of liberty as embodied in the works of our founding fathers, naturally emanating from that is a deep antipathy for Islamism (political Islam), salafism, jihadism, governmental sharia, and the global collectivist movement of the Muslim Brotherhood.”

    Terms such as “moderate,” “secular,” and “radical” are innately controversial as any group is able to contort them to mean what they want. For example, Jasser posits, the term “moderate” has become synonymous with being non-violent or anti-terrorism. But this is an oversimplification that blinds Americans to the very political ideologies — which he identifies as “Islamism” — that are the cogs and gears of terrorism.

    “I know everyone is looking for an easy label to know the ‘good Muslim’ from the ‘bad Muslim,’” Jasser continues, “but … I believe that the ‘anti-Islamist’ or at least ‘non-Islamist’ Muslims are on our side and the pro-Islamist Muslims, those who believe in the Islamic state and governmental sharia, are not on our side but on the side of political Islam.”

    AIFD’s slogan is that its members are “Americans who happen to be Muslim, and not Muslims who demand to be American.” As a devout Muslim, Dr. Jasser has voiced strong opposition to the mosque now called “Park 51” that threatens to encroach on Ground Zero. When he first heard of the plans, he says, he wrote an op-ed for the New York Post detailing why he as a Muslim felt a mosque in such a location would only offer more misguidance for the U.S. Muslim community.

    “The reality is that many of us have never said their rights should be infringed in any way but rather that we pray that a light will finally go on in their heads which tells them that ‘this ostentatious $100 million Islamic center should be built elsewhere and not in a place that casts a shadow upon the graves of thousands of Americans’ — still an open raw wound for most Americans,” Dr. Jasser explains....

    “I cannot see genuine Muslim reform happening on the dime of foreign Islamist interests,” Jasser says. “Make no mistake, this Islamic center is not a spiritual statement but a global political one in the name of Islam. … Every group I have been directly involved with in building mosques and Islamic projects in the U.S. have rejected foreign funds entirely because of the ideological hypocrisies and Islamism that comes with them.”...

    Dr. Jasser has also taken serious issue with the background story that the mosque’s developers have chosen to promote... the possibility of the Ground Zero mosque coalescing from idea into structure presents not only the insult to the millions of Americans who experienced true horror on September 11, 2001, nor the threat of a new mammoth gateway for radical Islamic ideas to slip into the U.S., but the threat of sending a message of weakness to Islamists the world over.

    “It will be used by Islamist leadership around the world to say, ‘despite the violence that al-Qaeda perpetrated on the American population, political Islam will always be victorious and from its ashes has risen the largest religious Muslim structure in the United States,’” Jasser warns. “As the administration continues to move backwards, [outlawing] the use of any specific religious Islamic terms like jihad, Islamsim, and salafism, the Islamists continue to make unopposed headway in the contest of ideas. We are losing the war of ideas.”..

    “If the organizers [of the Ground Zero mosque] were truly moderate, they would not be building mammoth structures like this but rather investing in spreading the ideas of liberty into the Muslim community against the ideas of political Islam and the Muslim Brotherhood. They would be teaching American Muslim youth to reach out by joining our military and homeland security efforts en masse rather than allowing Islamist organizations in D.C. like CAIR to brainwash young Muslims that our military and FBI are anti-Muslim and the U.S. is anti-Islam.”

    no doubt Tawfik Hamid is also anti-Muslim, and thinks that all Muslims are terrorists....

    Hamid is well acquainted with the threats from radical Islam — he was once a member of a terrorist Islamic organization along with Dr. Ayman Al-Zawahiri, who later became the second in command of al-Qaida.

    Today Hamid is a senior fellow and chair for the Study of Islamic Radicalism at the Potomac Institute for Policy Studies. He is the author of "Inside Jihad: Understanding and Confronting Radical Islam,"...

    President Barack Obama said over the weekend that the Muslims have the right to build the mosque near ground zero in Manhattan, although he later stated he did not advocate the construction. But New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg has said he does advocate construction.

    In an exclusive interview with Newsmax.TV, Hamid criticized Bloomberg’s advocacy of the mosque.

    “I believe he did this without doing the most basic step, which is to make sure that the leaders of the mosque are truly moderates,” Hamid says.

    “I don’t have any specific negative things against them except for the issue of Hamas. They support Hamas. This is a very serious issue. It means they support killing innocent children in the name of Islam. This is what Hamas does. He should have made sure first that this group [that wants to build the mosque] is moderate.

    “He should have asked them, if they are truly moderate, shall they tell us, and tell the media and tell the world, their position on the violent Shariah teachings, such as killing the apostate and stoning women to death and declaring wars to spread their religion.

    “How could he consider them moderate without making sure that they stand clearly and unambiguously against the violent ethics of Shariah?”

    As for why he personally opposes construction of the mosque, Hamid says: “Many Islamists believe that this is a sign of victory for Islam, a triumph over America. It’s a symbol of victory for Islam over the values of America.”...

    Asked if the mosque project will further polarize Muslims and non-Muslims, Hamid says: “Absolutely. It will create friction between civilizations, and I’m afraid it can be the spark that will start the big fire of a war between civilizations, because I can see people are getting angry.

    “And it shows a lot of insensitivity from the Muslim side. Doing something legal does not mean that you are sensitive to others.”..

    “Some people pretend they are moderates but they are not moderates. And there are some people who do not have the theological knowledge to discredit the beliefs of the radicals.

    “It’s tribal mentality. We haven’t seen demonstrations in the Muslim world against bin-Laden, for example. So it’s sort of a tribal mentality that makes them unable to criticize their fellow Muslim brothers.”
    Nor have I moved any goal post.
    as long as you are pretending to the insanely stupid idea that thinking the 9/11 mosque is insensitive = thinking that all muslims are terrorists, then you are correct, your worldview is logically consistent. it just also has little connection with reality.

    The leaders of this have a very moderate and open view.
    really. firstly, if they were moderate, they would be pursuing a course more like that outlined above. secondly, they would be willing to discredit hamas. thirdly, they wouldn't include 9/11 truthers.
    Last edited by cpwill; 10-22-10 at 05:28 PM.
    Iraq is not a perfect place, but we’re leaving behind a sovereign, stable, and self-reliant Iraq, with a representative government... In Afghanistan we’ve broken the momentum of the Taliban... And around the globe, as we draw down in Iraq, we have gone after al Qaeda so that terrorists who threaten America will have no safe haven. - Barack Obama

  9. #159
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    Re: O'Reilly ticks off View hosts Behar and Goldberg

    Quote Originally Posted by SheWolf View Post
    I know.. it's like you can't win.. ever. If you say you're moderate, you could still bomb NYC.. don't trust any Muslim ever, they can suddenly change teams.

    If this is all Muslims are going to get in return for being moderate and decrying terrorism.. then I say build the Mosque. Don't even listen to these people.. they won't listen to you. The Muslim community knows who their American friends are.
    Really, who are their friends?
    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    Please pardon the sound of the children screaming in terror - that's the sound of Second Amendment Freedom!!!!

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    Re: O'Reilly ticks off View hosts Behar and Goldberg

    Juan Williams sat in for Bill O'Reilly last night, and the last ten minutes of the first half hour were an excellent recap of this thread: 3 minutes to replay part of Megyn Kelly's interview with Ibrahim Hooper of CAIR earlier in the day, and 7 minutes with Dr. Zuhdi Jasser who completely demolished Hooper as a "moderate" Muslim.

    Dr. Jasser is exactly correct that the self-professed "moderate" Muslims complain about bias and Islamaphobia in order to misdirect the conversation away from the real problem, which is that they are trying to hide Political Islam behind Religious Islam. Dr. Jasser recognizes that Islam needs a Reformation to separate the two, an Enlightenment, and that this is a Muslim problem which can only be solved by Muslims who will unite to disavow the political ideology that motivates the Islamists. The guy is absolutely brilliant, a true moderate Muslim, and I hope to see more of him and his ideas in the future.
    "We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress & the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution, but overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution."
    - Abraham Lincoln

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