scourge99

The underlying message wasn't bad, per se, but as a government contractor it effectively begged the question and gave an inaccurate portrayal of government, private business, and military relations. However, it is a fictional film its not meant to be taken seriously. Nonetheless, it does posit misconceptions in the minds of those ignorant to contractor and government dealings.

All in all, if government contractors weren't given enough bad publicity by ignoramuses who don't have a clue whats actually going on and if the stigma of the Iraq war wasn't compounding this problem by casting an even more overly critical eye on the business then this would be a non-issue. Context is everything.

Government contractors make more money when governments are at war, this is true. But the truth is the people who get paid to make the guns, tanks, ships, computers, and missiles for our military are just as diverse as the people who don't help build these things. It would be a grave mistake to think that somehow government contractors want war and want to send there friends, family, and children to the battlefield or to see other countries slaughter each other just to put more money in our pockets.

We don't make weapons to find someone to use them on.... we make weapons so our friends, family, and children come home and the enemy's don't.

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Petty Desire or Grand Ambition?

bhkad

Thank you for lending your credibility to this point that I, a non-contractor, never could.

Especially as I am often wont to sophomoric displays of emotion. (It's the liberal in me.)

And speaking of sophomoric displays, I hope this one is not too embarrassing for you.

Thanks for your comments.

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But, when all is said and done, Senator McCain has not spent decades aiding and abetting people who hate America. http://jewishworldreview.com/cols/sowell060508.php3

bhkad

Talk about shadings of grey! Your post virtually whipsawed me from one shade of grey to another and then another and then again and again and again.

I will admit to 'reaching' for this conclusion. But how I arrived at it was to take the very real interpersonal dynamic which dictates that people are usually given the kind of treatment and respect that they demand. And when I say demand I mean it in the way they carry themselves and their sense of self respect. And with that dynamic I mixed the idea that Islamist fighters and sympathizers have studied America well and - as you mention later in your post - if they see us fighting amongst ourselves they would try to capitalize on that dissension and exacerbate it and I came up with that theory.

I'm not 'married' to it, but neither do I rush to drop it, either. At least not until I have more 'feedback from the field.'

And in this part of your post you are obviously speaking of the impressions you have gathered from your travels abroad. However, in a way the exact same thing could be said to transpire here in the USA. We ARE brainwashed in small, almost, imperceptible doses on a daily basis. And for those who doubt it, I will point to JUST the news media admissions of bias which lead to a skewed interpretation of people and motivations and events reported in the news.



And that doesn't even address the ALMOST imperceptibly corrosive attitudes casually presented in film and TV shows. And I say almost imperceptibly because I know that some people recognize that it's happening and others, (scan this thread and you'll see examples) simply don't get it at all. They seem impervious to it. But that is the magic of subliminal messaging. You can get a message across to people and they won't recognize the message consciously, but their subconscious will. And the subconscious will direct them to act on things without knowing why.

Levels of Awareness

As the example at the link points out, we are able to recognize certain things sometimes ONLY when they are pointed out to us even though they are in plain sight.

Take a look at this RNC campaign ad from the year 2000 and let's see if you can detect the subliminal message. It isn't very hard, but there are some whose brains don't work in that way so after watching the commercial highlight the text block I've posted in white as a way to conceal the secret info.

http://www.ciadvertising.org/student...2j/1st/rat.mov

In September, 2000, two democratic senators asked the Federal Communications Commission for a review of the Republican National Committee’s ad. It was discovered that if the ad was slowed down, the word “RATS” appeared clearly on the screen in large, white letters superimposed over the words “The Gore Prescription Plan” while an announcer criticized Gore’s prescription drug plan. In a fraction of a second, the word disappeared, and the words “BUREAUCRATS DECIDE” showed up in smaller letters. The “RATS” ad run more than 4,400 times in 33 markets nationwide in two weeks, costing the RNC more than 2,576,600 <28>.

Claims about the power of subliminal advertising

There are subliminal messages in films and videogames we just are not consciously aware of but are secretly and almost imperceptibly acting on us all and the effect of this is to breed discontent amongst the population.

I've thought for some time now that some of the more popular horror films of the past two decades or so have carelessly painted the government as an evil entity. A villain that must be defeated and never trusted beyond a grudging compliance with it's laws. And now that the children who watched those films over and over again on that brand new 1980's consumer innovation called the VCR, are 20-somethings what do we have? A society in rebellion against itself and the hatred and mistrust of those who believe in the generally well meaning but certainly imperfect government are seen as sheep or worse.

In many social or academic or political circles in America, America or Americans ARE hated. By Americans. (As you point out in the latter part of your post.) In other circles the feeling of animosity toward America and Americans is much more moderated. And in a lot of places in America, Americans are still quite liked.

Of course you are right. It won't have a galvanizing effect but the steady effect of one subtle anti-American message in a film followed by an uncomplimentary news report by an admittedly biased news network, followed by a comment from some celebrity whose work you admire insults the President, followed by jokes by Jay or Dave made about the current administration some of which are exaggerated for comic effect and others having little basis in fact, followed by jeers of derision from the SNL audience and a constant harangue by Stewart et al, DO take a toll.

And the price paid is a little death. A death of America from within, from a lack of self confidence, a sense of self hatred that is genuinely felt but no one can rightly explain (though they desperately try to pin it on Bush & Co.) and is so overwhelming that people look to destroy each other to gain a sense of non-delayed gratification. Although gratification isn't really the best word to use. It's more like relief or release. A release from the hatred and mistrust that would have been aimed at Washington. And don't tell me that Democratic politicians weren't able to sense the discontent aimed their way after Ruby Ridge, Waco, the Atlanta Olympic Park Bombing, the Unabomber, and more. Rather than trying to convince brain washed Americans that the government ("the establishment") wasn't the enemy the Democrats seemed to adopt the "running shoes" strategy for escaping a charging bear.

Two campers see a bear charging towards them and one begins putting on his running shoes. The other camper says, "you can't outrun a bear even with the best of footwear." The Democratic camper says, "You're right. But I don't have to be faster than the bear, I just have to be faster than YOU."

And the joke is that the bear would catch the slower man.

It seems that the Democrats sought to shift the focus of angry Americans (many who have no clue as to why they feel so angry) onto the Republicans.

And from before the inauguration the levels of animosity between Americans were higher than in any other election in my memory. And this was in the year leading up to the attacks on 9/11. And at every turn it seemed the President, the GOP, the Administration or the government in general was being criticized. And this, I believe, may have contributed to the paucity of communications from the White House in the first several months. If anything you say is going to be slammed, why say anything at all to the public unless you HAVE to?

But human nature has a funny way of working. If you don't tell people what is going on they will think the worst. And so, as bad as it was to get slammed by the press for anything they said and being nit picked for every miscue or malaprop, it was much worse to have an already brainwashed, mistrustful, suspicious, angry press and public fearing the worst and then having a few professional rabble rousers, representing various agendas, introduce finely spun truths, myths, half-truths, rumors and out right lies into the public trough.

ONE OF TWO

bhkad

TWO OF TWO

And then came 9/11. And then came the GWOT. And then came the lead up to invasion. And then about three months after the invasion the Democrats saw a way to turn this situation to their favor. By painting themselves as the heroes and the Administration as evil and criminal they would be able to benefit politically.

Remember, the Democrats saw all of the intelligence information the President saw and they voted for the war. Al Gore defended the President initially. Bill Clinton defended the President initially. Hillary Clinton defended the war. And what changed them was that they wanted to be able to disassociate themselves from a difficult situation and leave the GOP holding the bag. But to do this they had to demonize the GOP. So they turned everything the public felt passionately about against the GOP and the Administration and the President. All the crap the public threw at Washington and politicians in general, the Democrats guided toward the GOP.



The Democrats were the fan.

And then the media caught the drift after having no clear signals from this administration which was being taciturn it found the track to run on and a witting partner in the Democrats. And they made George Bush the enemy. Rumsfeld. Cheney. The Neo-Cons. Ashcroft. Gonzales. All of them. Any of them. All of their associates. Any of their supporters. Any and all of their dealings. Any and all of their policies.

These became the enemy far more than any others.



Here we can easily detect the "Government as Enemy" leitmotif.

There is an enemy trying to defeat us and they won't be stopped with talk.

But as these quite serious matters transpire before our very eyes we are so anxious to do SOMETHING to achieve relief that we fight each other with the same venom and passion as though we were fighting Nazis or the Imperial Japanese in WWII. We have been revved up into a surly, ugly lather and the cultural imperatives that keep us at all civil are artificially imposed by the new culture arbiter, Television.

The words we can't say on TV have become the words we generally all agree are the "bad" words. I remember a time when "darn" or "Hell" were profane but because TV says they are ok we all have fallen into line before a screen of our own reflection and we can never be quite sure which is us and which is the mirror image and which one is initiating and which is following our lead.

And so, to make money TV serves up what we say we want and what is proven to satisfy. And we say we don't like it and that it's all garbage but someone is watching it and they are watching us. And so when the demonization of the administration became the track to run on the networks hired those who would and could flavor the messages to appeal to this new fad. And the already surly millions began to show up BIG for those shows and newscasts which were most anti-Bush, anti-Administration, anti-GOP, anti-Government, and etc. And if that is what the public is 'buying; that's what the media would deliver.

And one network NBC/MSNBC is virtually in open opposition to anything the current administration does and they seem gleeful in their opposition. Only the desire to impress advertisers by attracting some overlapping viewers who wish to see both sides of any story and turn to NBC/MSNBC as a way to balance out their Fox News viewing helps remind them of the journalistic ethos of objectivity.

But sometimes they can't help themselves.

Cue Chris Matthews joining forces with Air America's Mark Green to trounce a gutsy but unprepared Kevin James. Objectivity and impartiality?



And there are probably some who might TRY to find an example of Bill O'Reilly doing similarly. But I doubt it would be found. And even so, that's not the point. The point is that we ARE divisive and there IS a subtly corrosive message being sent out across America by those who only want our money and don't much care about patriotism or God or anything but keeping their bosses happy, staying out of trouble and making more and more money.

And with that as the driving force America suffers. But not so much that some here would recognize or object to it.

And that is the point of and the end of this rant.

Arcana XV

I understand all that, bhkad. I know about the insidious effects a constant barrage of negative, divisive media reports can have. I can see those effects on my friends in the US when I talk to them. Many of them (liberals and conservatives alike) have developped an ambivalence about their country that didn't used to be there just 12 years ago, when I spent about a year in the US.

What I have never experienced however is "hate" for their country from an American citizen. I have heard many times "I love my country, but I really hate our government". I can totally understand this sentiment. I have felt it myself countless times towards my own place of origin. Hating the people who run the country or their actions is not the same as hating the whole country. Nowhere is this feeling more pronounced than in Americans living abroad. Their love for their country is palpable, as is their utter contempt for the current administration and what it has done to hurt the image of the country they love so much.

I honestly don't see why any of this is bad. There is nothing healthier than to look at your government and stand in judgment of its actions. That's our job as citizens of ANY country. The actions of our governments are what shapes and defines the standing our country holds in the world. It can be a source of immense pride, but also of very deep shame. I understand that the US media tends to exagerate and overinflate events to get ratings and that it makes it difficult to grasp what is really going on, but I honestly don't think that it will ever be enough for Americans to start hating their country.

Do you think that hate of government is equal to hate of country? I don't think it is at all. This is, IMO, where a lot of people get confused. They hear constant criticism at home and abroad of the US government's actions and they immediately think that the whole country is being criticized and loathed. That is not the case. Americans, as individuals, are not hated around the world (except in the more rabidly anti-American regions); America, as a nation, with all it's diversity and natural beauty, is not hated around the world. America, as a political entity, however, is very much disliked even among those who are your closest allies. And those Americans at home who take part in that constant criticism do not hate their country. I'm willing to bet they love it more than most, but that's just my own personal impression.

As for your assertion that the current venom thrown at the Bush administration is all the Democrats' fault, that is just way too simplistic. Sure they played a role. It was politically convenient for them to do so. But are you suggesting that this administration did not make any mistakes worthy of the contempt most of the country feels for it? It's much easier to topple over something that stands on very shaky ground, don't you think?

I hope this all made sense and is not too jumbled up, I'm at work and was constantly interrupted while typing this. Made me lose my trail of thought a few times.

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"Yes, but are you a Protestant atheist or a Catholic atheist?".- Northern Irish joke

Trinity

Unlike u guys, I thought the movie was extremely patriotic and pro-US.

Tony Stark portrayed by Robert Downey Jr is an industralist and makes smarter, better and more effective weapons for US military. Tho he was captured by Islamic militants, he refused to make a weapon (his latest invention the Jericho missile) for them.

When he knew his weapons r being sold to the enemy to do harm rather than good, he steps in, makes *Iron Man* a reality and combats the enemy and destroys his weapons that were sold to them in underhanded deals and rescues those he puts in harm's way.

I esp like the way he handled the hostage situation - how do u differentiate and not kill civilians who r being held hostage by terrorists? .... by simple elimination in a line-up
(U have to watch the movie to appreciate the pun )

Overall, an awesome movie, I daresay the best movie I have seen so far, extremely entertaining. I rate it comparable to Transformers actually. If u have not seen it, bhkad, u shd

And yes, Robert Downey Jr is downright sexy. I am looking forward to Iron Man 2 due 2010.

Another, more detailed trailer of Iron Man here :

I esp like the no-nonsense, down-to-earth approach of this Iron Man... heroes shd walk away when others attack them, right? Nah, this one shoots right back (see the end of the trailer) "...I'm just not the hero type, clearly..."

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I didn't fight my way to the top of the food chain to be a vegetarian

Arcana XV

Yeah, I also liked this scene a lot. It was pretty cool.

bhkad

Alright, if I said I thought some Americans hate America I will recant.

In composing the 'rant' I was able to go beyond, or should I say, deeper into the dynamics of what is behind the very subtle Iron Man message.

And in the process I was able to see that Americans are angry at something but they can't really identify what it is. It is as though we know something is wrong in America and because of the many and subtle anti-Government messages, we have come to mistrust or even hate government, authority and anything having to do with the government and almost any authority.

And though this anger is certainly fed by real examples of government excess or misconduct we have a whole group of young people who have come to believe that the exaggerated representations of government greed, avarice, stupidity and evil we see in fiction are the norm. And that nothing the government does is right and the only way to escape this monster (to a large degree a monster of our own imaginations) is to rebel.

Rebel against the government, it's policies and laws, rebel against those who support the government and who try to uphold our traditions. We rebel against law enforcement, against the use of our military to protect the very framework and systems we depend upon and our values.

It is ok to question the government. It is ok to express ones' views. But our sense of balance is off kilter and messages like the very subtle one in Iron Man, which feed into this aberration of perception does not help anything but Marvel's bottom line.

Every story needs a villain. When we were in the Cold War we could hate the Russians. For a short while we saw Arabs made out to be the villain. Films like Indiana Jones have made use of villains as diverse as nature (snakes or the natural laws of physics) to Nazis. But it's harder than ever now to find a believable villain who won't complain.

So who can we point the blame at?

The government. And when demonizing the government becomes a problem we shift the blame to the government contractors, with the government only slightly implicated.

I need coffee.

the makeout hobo

I saw the movie a week or so ago, and I really didn't see anything anti-military in the movie. The soldiers in the film are all good people, and the movie doesn't disparage their mission at all. All of the underhanded arms selling is done by a guy (spoiler alert) who turns out to be the big bad guy anyways, not the US Government. I really don't see the negative message.

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The Makeout Hobo is real, and does indeed travel around the country in his van and make out with ladies... If you meet the Makeout Hobo, it is customary to greet him with a shot of whiskey and a high five (if you are a dude) or passionate makeouts (if you are a lady).Vague is a man of honor

Thales

I think bhkad is offended that underhanded Defense Contractors were vilified, potentially creating a sense of public dislike.

But it's a movie, and I'd still say it was a highly patriotic film on the whole. After all, Tony Stark is a defense contractor too, and spends much of the film wiping out Afghan militants. If anything it disparages underhanded corporations while celebrating the American armed forces.