American journalism is collapsing before our eyes

DaveFagan said:

I do not see American journalism as Democrat or Republican, nor liberal or conservative. What I see is control by militant warhawks supporting current and future wars and the Military Industrial Corporate Complex. This is a banking goldmine, ergo the banks also support the warhawks. To me the warhawks are individuals and groups that support Imperialistic agendas, the NWO, Monopolistic International Banking Alliances, and USA hegemony worldwide. I didn't vote for that. These groups control the agenda in American journalism and choose the Presidential candidate that will act upon their agenda. That is why the warmonger Hillary has strong Republican support because these are usually the War Party of big business. Hillary will bring more war. Trump says pull out of Iraq, Syria, and Libya and maybe NATO. Oops! That's gonna slow down the War business. This War Business is the agenda of the status quo and they own the press and want the candidate that will make wars. American journalism is bought and sold by the War Machine. Remember, in 1977 the Senate Church Committee found 400 CIA assetts/agents in the USA Media. Almost 40 years ago and how many do they have now? 10 times as many? 100 times as many? That was when they were not allowed to operate domestically and didn't have their own military troops, contractors (pmcs), drones, cybersnoops, etc. We, the citizens and taxpayers, are being played.

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Thank you Dave, for keeping things in perspective. The western media is for the most part controlled by the CIA. Traditional journalism as practiced by Cronkite, Mencken and a few others is dead in the water.

Ganesh said:

Yes, that is exactly the point. You want to cite the opinion of others, qualified opinion that will lend weight to your thesis. That's why you will often see a list of sources in the back of a book, or at the end of a magazine piece. If one is the leading expert in a certain field, then sure citing references is not so important. But few are, and that definitely includes most journalists. That is why they (within those media outlets that still pretend some professionalism) make a clear and defined division between opinion pieces and straight reporting. That's why outlets like Fox News fail the test of professionalism. It shamelessly crosses the line between opinion and unbiased reporting on a daily basis.

You are correct that no one's opinion is any more valid than anyone else's, that is, until they can back it up with verifiable fact. That's why I cited the Washington Post, which reproduced statements that are on public record, and the WSJ, which quoted recognized studies.

If you have information that backs up your claim to Clinton's supposed ill health, then I'm happy to read it. Maybe you are right. But no one will know unless you make more of a case than tis' so.

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You continue to defend your "sources" as valid because you believe them. The media in general will say anything that profits them about anything at any time.

Have you ever gone back on a printed list of sources to verify that what they are saying is as stated, verbatim?

As for wanting to read about the health of Clinton, open your eyes. It is all over the news. At least the news that still pretends to be honest. I can't force you to read it but I can and will call you out for saying you did not read it. That would apply only if you chose to ignore it.

Ganesh said:

Could be. But where is your evidence? Just hoping that it is so is not enough.

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Where is your evidence that what I posted is untrue? To quote you, just your hoping so is not enough.

ocean515 said:

Again, you're position is hampered by the facts, and perhaps a perception filtered by personal objectives.

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Facts are generally an asset for one's position, but one must also examine the relative value such assets.

ocean515 said:

Mexico depends on remittances from it's citizens living outside the country.

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They do, to an extent. A quick Google suggested foreign remittances make up about 1.8% of Mexican GDP. Hardly worth getting too sweaty about, and certainly not worth causing international incidents.

ocean515 said:

Mexico provides information and instructions on how to cross the border illegally.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/01/06/world/americas/a-mexican-manual-for-illegal-migrants-upsets-some-in-us.html?_r=0

Historically, Mexico has done little to nothing to address the numbers of it's citizens crossing illegally into Mexico.

Taken as a whole, it is fair to state that Mexico is indeed encouraging its citizens to cross illegally. This encouragement can be seen by their responses to efforts on the US side to increase security and stop intrusions.

Mexico Slams U.S. Immigration Reform Bill's Proposed Border Buildup - ABC News

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The facts you present here weak to the extent one could hardly desire them as an asset. The pamphlet you are referring to has been examined in the (legitimate) media, and while it could been seen as indirectly condoning illegal migration, in fact its focus is on safety of individuals, and suggests those wanting to migrate do so through legal channels, for which it provides information. It is also a decade old, and is not distributed today. As usual Fox "News" has aired an inflammatory piece designed to up ratings, with little concern for professional journalism.

ocean515 said:

Trump has made no racists statements. It is the fraudulent efforts of the Hillary Clinton forces, which includes her MSM election committee who has fabricated lies, distortion, and deceit.

Your last sentence reveals the subjective approach you are applying, and disqualifies your claims as being objective in nature. You are certainly entitled to draw your own conclusions based on the evidence you filter through your bias, but that does not remove the objective facts, and the objective conclusion.

The Hilliary Clinton campaign, the DNC, her supporters, the MSM connected to her campaign are all using deceit, lies, out of context sound bites, and large scale propaganda in their effort to counter the raw, and certainly aggressive facts being presented by Donald Trump.

Resorting to lies and deceit establishes a bottom that should be embarrassing to anyone willing to eat from the trough of excrement they fill it with daily.

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It is pretty hard to label something a lie, if the speaker in question uttered it on camera, with millions watching. Trump said Mexico is sending druggies and rapists. Mexico is sending no one. In fact, illegal immigration has dropped in recent years, as more jobs have appeared in Mexico. There is absolutely no evidence that the Mexican government is seeking out those with criminal records, and driving them to the border. This is simply inflammatory and racist rhetoric, designed to get the border. Studies such as the one I linked indicate that immigrants- including illegals- tend to have a lower level of criminality than the population in general. These are studies ocean, not anecdotal statements off the cuff. So why would Trump say those things? He is playing the race card, because he knows his audience. Cynical? You bet. True? Yes.

The Mexican rapists are just one of many gaffs the Donald has made, hoping that the populace is too stupid, or too cynical and disinterested to catch him out. He also said that a judge hearing a case against him would be biased because of his Mexican descent. Even his own party conceded that was racist.He has suggested that the billion and a half people who adhere to a certain religion should all be suspected as terrorists, not because of their behavior, but because of their religion. There have been offhand statements about lazy blacks, cunning and sharp Jewish businessmen, and I think we don't even have to reprise Trump's satisfaction in having a young and beautiful piece of ass.

These are all statements Trump has made, they did not come from the media, nor from the Clinton campaign. You claim they are out of context, but cannot explain why.

Smith says Mexico hands out brochures showing migrants how to avoid Border Patrol, enter U.S. | PolitiFact Texas

Dittohead not! said:

If grammar is "copied and remembered," when will you copy and remember it?

How am I checkmated? Is it because you continue to repeat the same thing with no way to back up your unsubstantiated opinion?

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You are Checkmated because you are saying GENETICS can be learned... That is what checkmates you...... logic is an ability made and controlled by genetics... height is the same....we can NOT learn to have 2 eyes... again that is made and controlled by genetics.

SailaWay said:

You are Checkmated because you are saying GENETICS can be learned... That is what checkmates you...... logic is an ability made and controlled by genetics... height is the same....we can NOT learn to have 2 eyes... again that is made and controlled by genetics.

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Genetics is not logic, and logic is not genetics. Your height and the number of eyes you have is determined by the double helix, just as are other physical characteristics.

Logic, like grammar, is learned.

Dittohead not! said:

Genetics is not logic, and logic is not genetics. Your height and the number of eyes you have is determined by the double helix, just as are other physical characteristics.

Logic, like grammar, is learned.

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WRONG AGAIN...... Logic is an ability that comes from genetics..physical and thinking parts BOTH comes from genetics.. NOT learned

PSST PSST.. where does any TYPE of thinking come from? PSST PSST... BRAIN...where does a BRAIN COME FROM? PSST PSST.. its genetics...

can learning come from NO BRAIN? NOPE. CHECKMATED AGAIN...

FOLLOW THE BOUNCING BALL...... where does the BRAIN come from?? where does logic come from?? where does IQ come from?

again sit a lizard and a human in a classroom for 500 years and then check LEARNING.. also check LOGIC...

there is NO learning or copying memory without the BRAIN and its ingredients which comes from genetics.....

SLAMDUNKED AGAIN...

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Evidence is presented showing that young children adhere to universal semantic principles that characterize adult linguistic competence across languages. Several a priori arguments are also offered in favour of logical nativism. These arguments show that logic, like Socratic virtue and like certain aspects of language, is not learned and cannot be taught — thus supporting a strong form of innateness.

SailaWay said:

WRONG AGAIN...... Logic is an ability that comes from genetics..physical and thinking parts BOTH comes from genetics.. NOT learned

PSST PSST.. where does any TYPE of thinking come from? PSST PSST... BRAIN...where does a BRAIN COME FROM? PSST PSST.. its genetics...

can learning come from NO BRAIN? NOPE. CHECKMATED AGAIN...

FOLLOW THE BOUNCING BALL...... where does the BRAIN come from?? where does logic come from?? where does IQ come from?

again sit a lizard and a human in a classroom for 500 years and then check LEARNING.. also check LOGIC...

there is NO learning or copying memory without the BRAIN and its ingredients which comes from genetics.....

SLAMDUNKED AGAIN...

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Evidence is presented showing that young children adhere to universal semantic principles that characterize adult linguistic competence across languages. Several a priori arguments are also offered in favour of logical nativism. These arguments show that logic, like Socratic virtue and like certain aspects of language, is not learned and cannot be taught — thus supporting a strong form of innateness.

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Just because you, personally, haven't learned either logic or grammar doesn't mean that either one is not learned behavior.

Dittohead not! said:

Just because you, personally, haven't learned either logic or grammar doesn't mean that either one is not learned behavior.

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its so funny to say genetics IS LEARNED... so so FUNNY...

people could make good money off of betting to see what happens when having different genetics doing the SAME EDUCATION,,, who would bet and predict that learning is Learning and then both would have EQUAL RESULTS.. since the education was EQUAL.... the others will bet there will be a difference in results even when the education is the same

we see this clearly with the sat math test.... where after 50 years of equal education with math... there still is a big difference... we can see this in gender differences

SailaWay said:

its so funny to say genetics IS LEARNED... so so FUNNY...

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It's also rather stupid to say that genetics is learned, or that I or anyone else has maintained that it is.

Manc Skipper said:

Trump is a product of that "fraud media".

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No Trump was smart enough to get around their bias attempt to destroy him. He knew they would never publish the real issues but would publish hype, sensationalism, and would twist anything he said into a problem. However the American People are starting to see through our bias media and the out right lies.

Ganesh said:

Facts are generally an asset for one's position, but one must also examine the relative value such assets.



They do, to an extent. A quick Google suggested foreign remittances make up about 1.8% of Mexican GDP. Hardly worth getting too sweaty about, and certainly not worth causing international incidents.



The facts you present here weak to the extent one could hardly desire them as an asset. The pamphlet you are referring to has been examined in the (legitimate) media, and while it could been seen as indirectly condoning illegal migration, in fact its focus is on safety of individuals, and suggests those wanting to migrate do so through legal channels, for which it provides information. It is also a decade old, and is not distributed today. As usual Fox "News" has aired an inflammatory piece designed to up ratings, with little concern for professional journalism.



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Thank you for your opinions. Your out of hand dismissal of all evidence I have presented, with poor rebuttal, and/or rebuttal based on subjective analysis filtered through your bias makes further discussion pointless.

Have a nice day.

Dittohead not! said:

It's also rather stupid to say that genetics is learned, or that I or anyone else has maintained that it is.

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you are saying genetics is learned.... You are saying that when you say logic is learned....the memory ability that copies like a parrot is NOT LEARNED...the logic ability that analyzes is NOT learned to analyze...inventions does not come from education... inventions comes from the logic ability

genetics determines who can copy and who cannot.... who can read and who can not.... who can change and who cannot

so no ability can be learned....

you are saying that genetics is learned.... NO its NOT

SailaWay said:

you are saying genetics is learned.... You are saying that when you say logic is learned....the memory ability that copies like a parrot is NOT LEARNED...the logic ability that analyzes is NOT learned to analyze...inventions does not come from education... inventions comes from the logic ability

genetics determines who can copy and who cannot.... who can read and who can not.... who can change and who cannot

so no ability can be learned....

you are saying that genetics is learned.... NO its NOT

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OK, then.

Just say what I think, and you can win the debate.

I say you think horses are carnivores. I think I'll argue against that position for a while.

Dittohead not! said:

OK, then.

Just say what I think, and you can win the debate.

I say you think horses are carnivores. I think I'll argue against that position for a while.

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It is very important to UNDERSTAND that logic is NOT LEARNED.... THIS thinking it is LEARNED helps the crooks fool nations and then nations allow low IQ's to come in ... Those low IQ's are more easy to fool and that is why the crooks tries to brainwash other low wisdom people to think that low Logic can CHANGE with education.... THAT is a LIE and crooks simply trying to get the unwise to vote and to fool more easy..... BUT long term this destroys a nation

SailaWay said:

It is very important to UNDERSTAND that logic is NOT LEARNED.... THIS thinking it is LEARNED helps the crooks fool nations and then nations allow low IQ's to come in ... Those low IQ's are more easy to fool and that is why the crooks tries to brainwash other low wisdom people to think that low Logic can CHANGE with education.... THAT is a LIE and crooks simply trying to get the unwise to vote and to fool more easy..... BUT long term this destroys a nation

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But you haven't shown that it's not learned. All you've done is to repeat your premise that it is not, then tell me I'm saying that genetics is learned.

Logic is learned. It takes a human brain to learn it, but it is not something that is simply there on the double helix.
At least some of what we call IQ is also learned. How much is up for debate, but it is not simply genetic.

Don't forget the rare savant type person.

Dittohead not! said:

But you haven't shown that it's not learned. All you've done is to repeat your premise that it is not, then tell me I'm saying that genetics is learned.

Logic is learned. It takes a human brain to learn it, but it is not something that is simply there on the double helix.
At least some of what we call IQ is also learned. How much is up for debate, but it is not simply genetic.

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see how you get this totally wrong?? you are saying learning is LEARNED...... LEARNING comes from how the brain is made...there can be NO learning with a brain dead person

the proof of how bad wrong YOU ARE.... is check to see how LEARNING changes based on whats in the brain..


check it out.. are you SCARED??..... give the SAME EDUCATION to 2 different BRAINS... is learning the same??? learning is NOT THE SAME.. then learning does NOT come from education or training.... learning comes from the brain.... logic comes from the brain.... logic does NOT come from LEARNING... again logic comes from the BRAIN and cannot change with education.. what makes the so called change is that the brains are different and that makes education and data learned different .... logic is an ability in the brain and cannot be learned...same as a brain cannot be LEARNED.. same as having 2 eyes cannot be learned.. same as having one nose CANNOT BE LEARNED.... you got learning ALL MIXED UP......

SailaWay said:

see how you get this totally wrong?? you are saying learning is LEARNED...... LEARNING comes from how the brain is made...there can be NO learning with a brain dead person

the proof of how bad wrong YOU ARE.... is check to see how LEARNING changes based on whats in the brain..


check it out.. are you SCARED??..... give the SAME EDUCATION to 2 different BRAINS... is learning the same??? learning is NOT THE SAME.. then learning does NOT come from education or training.... learning comes from the brain.... logic comes from the brain.... logic does NOT come from LEARNING... again logic comes from the BRAIN and cannot change with education.. what makes the so called change is that the brains are different and that makes education and data learned different .... logic is an ability in the brain and cannot be learned...same as a brain cannot be LEARNED.. same as having 2 eyes cannot be learned.. same as having one nose CANNOT BE LEARNED.... you got learning ALL MIXED UP......

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Good grief.

I give up.

Have a nice day.

Dittohead not! said:

Good grief.

I give up.

Have a nice day.

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yep its pitiful to not understand the cause of the effect in life.... learning is NOT the CAUSE of learning.... ingredients in the brain is THE CAUSE of Learning

this is why ALL political correct nations WILL FALL.. because they lie and say intelligence can change with TRAINING...

we have 50 years of equal education of math to both genders.... BUT BUT still the VERY SAME difference in the SAT MATH TEST

proving... learning math comes from LOGIC in the brain

StillBallin75 said:

Again with the conservative victimhood complex. Preach personal responsibility, yet blame others when it's clear the reason for Trump's slide is his own ****ing mouth. No journalist is forcing him to spew the bull**** that he is, he's going out of his way to double down on lies that aren't even necessary. He was given multiple chances to modify and qualify his stance regarding "Obama is the founder of ISIS." He responds with "No, I literally meant he's the founder of ISIS." And then says the media can't take a joke when they call him out on his BS.

The media's not perfect, but it's not American journalism that's collapsing before our eyes. It's the fact that Trump has the temperament and impulse control of a five year old and repeatedly commits unforced errors like Mark Sanchez. But blaming the media for Trump's idiocy is par for the course.

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Indeed.

It may not be always true, but it seems like a pretty solid rule of thumb to me that whomever is making the loudest public sounds about the importance of a virtue lacks it almost entirely.

Grim17 said:

Nice dodge, but this article was not an endorsement for Trump. It was a repudiation of the irrefutable liberal bias that infests the main stream news media.

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Enough of the stupid dishonesty of speaking only of a "mainstream media" which is cherry-picked to refer only to certain TV media sources. If you add up all types of media available to the public, it's about evenly balanced.

I'm so sick of reading the lies certain conservatives need to tell themselves in order to feel like they're some kind of righteous martyrs. The country wobbles around 50/50 in terms of Right/Left, in elections, and pretty much always has. You make up 50% of the country but want to pretend you're being victimized by the other 50%?

Please.

Grim17 said:

Michael Goodwin is a man who spent 10 years as a reporter for the NY Times, was Executive Editor of the NY Daily News and won a Pulitzer Prize as Editorial Page Editor for their successful campaign to rescue the legendary Apollo Theatre from mismanagement.


When a man with that background and experience calls the MSM out for it's blatant bias and disreguard for fairness, it means something and is difficult for anyone to ignore.





American journalism is collapsing before our eyes | New York Post

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I'm only 75-years old so I can't remember a time without blatant bias. The biggest difference now and then is the newspapers used to proudly announce or at least admit their bias. Now they lie. Did Hearst ever pretend to be unbiased, nonpartisan?

They were just as biased back when. Now, they lie. The NYT should change their masthead from, "All the news that's fit, we print," to "All the news that fits, we print." If the news doesn't fit their politics then it didn't happen.

SailaWay said:

see how you get this totally wrong?? you are saying learning is LEARNED...... LEARNING comes from how the brain is made...there can be NO learning with a brain dead person

the proof of how bad wrong YOU ARE.... is check to see how LEARNING changes based on whats in the brain..


check it out.. are you SCARED??..... give the SAME EDUCATION to 2 different BRAINS... is learning the same??? learning is NOT THE SAME.. then learning does NOT come from education or training.... learning comes from the brain.... logic comes from the brain.... logic does NOT come from LEARNING... again logic comes from the BRAIN and cannot change with education.. what makes the so called change is that the brains are different and that makes education and data learned different .... logic is an ability in the brain and cannot be learned...same as a brain cannot be LEARNED.. same as having 2 eyes cannot be learned.. same as having one nose CANNOT BE LEARNED.... you got learning ALL MIXED UP......

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Logic is a method of thinking, and can be learned.

For example, your contention that: "give the SAME EDUCATION to 2 different BRAINS... is learning the same??? learning is NOT THE SAME.. then learning does NOT come from education or training.... learning comes from the brain"

By which I am assuming you mean "If you give the same education to two different people, they will learn differently. Thus, learning does not stem from education and training, but from the brain in question." You make the illogical jump from an obvious statement about how no two persons are the same, to a claim that education and training have no affect on learning, only the brain itself does.

This is clearly not true, as you can easily understand if you realize that changing the method of education and training can improve final result on the same brain. Often you have to change how you explain something to a person in order to get them to understand fully.



Learning is the process through which you train your brain. Having a genetically better starting point may help, but a large portion of how smart you are is in the training process. And it's an ongoing training process.

The Mark said:

Logic is a method of thinking, and can be learned.

For example, your contention that: "give the SAME EDUCATION to 2 different BRAINS... is learning the same??? learning is NOT THE SAME.. then learning does NOT come from education or training.... learning comes from the brain"

By which I am assuming you mean "If you give the same education to two different people, they will learn differently. Thus, learning does not stem from education and training, but from the brain in question." You make the illogical jump from an obvious statement about how no two persons are the same, to a claim that education and training have no affect on learning, only the brain itself does.

This is clearly not true, as you can easily understand if you realize that changing the method of education and training can improve final result on the same brain. Often you have to change how you explain something to a person in order to get them to understand fully.



Learning is the process through which you train your brain. Having a genetically better starting point may help, but a large portion of how smart you are is in the training process. And it's an ongoing training process.

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WRONG..... Logical thinking is an ABILITY.....its also similar to common sense..... neither one can be LEARNED

the higher the logical thinking ability the more complex an issue can be analyzed correctly to BE LOGICAL

same as the higher of the common sense ability can then analyze MORE complex issues

a simple issue does NOT require high logical thinking ability...


again the proof of this is.... give the same education and training....give it folks to analyze complex issues... if the answers are the SAME from both then logic ability is LEARNED..... BUT BUT BUT it is NOT the same proving the ability is based on what ingredients that brain has...


this is why females who have the same or better grades in math courses and then takes the SAT MATH test and the results are not equal and the same... the difference goes in favor of males... BECAUSE of different ABILITIES of LOGICAL THINKING ABILITY