Asian Americans Are Smarter, Richer, And Harder-Working Than Everyone Else

ThePlayDrive said:

-- I knew a lot of South Korean, Japanese and Singaporean students --

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Lachean said:

IMO, they're more educated not intelligent because they place such a high emphasis on education. Those that claim, "I don't care what anyone thinks" doesn't have a thing on the straight A kids who spend every college evening in the library (forfeiting any social life.) That kind of discipline leads to a hard working ethic.

IMO immigrant day laborers are just as hard working, for less pay, but far less educated.

Finally, as a (fictional) dead man once asked the Riddler, "If you're so smart why aren't you rich?" If they were so smart/hard working they too would disproportionally take up place in the Ivy Leagues, Wall Street, Banking and the %1; like the jews.

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mbig said:

You must be joking.
It's way past well known they are 'quota-ed' out of Ivy League AND other desirable schools because if they weren't they'd make Campuses more Asian than Jewish.
UCLA would be serving chicken soup with Wontons and Matzbah balls.
There have been Thousands and Thousands of articles on this well known Fact.
I don't even know where to start so:
https://www.google.com/search?q=Asi...34,d.dmQ&fp=6abbf1ee7d79dff7&biw=1393&bih=723
Note I just googled the more neutral 'Asians Ivy League' without using 'quota' or discrimination' which would have yielded even stronger declarations.

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Lachean said:

No I wasn't joking, nor was I aware of any quotas. I'll check out your link.

Edit: The link says there was no explicit quota, just alleged an implicit one. I need harder sources than this.

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SAN FRANCISCO — A new admissions policy set to take effect at the University of California system in three years is raising fears among Asian-Americans that it will reduce their numbers on campus, where they account for a Remarkable 40% of all undergraduates.

University officials say the new standards — the biggest change in UC admissions since 1960 — are intended to widen the pool of high school applicants and make the process more fair.

But Asian-American advocates, parents and lawmakers are angrily calling on the university to rescind the policy, which will apply at all nine of the system's undergraduate campuses.

They point to a UC projection that said the new standards would sharply reduce Asian-American admissions while resulting in little change for blacks and Hispanics, and a big gain for white students.

"I like to call it affirmative action for whites," said Ling-chi Wang, a retired professor at UC Berkeley. "I think it's extremely unfair to Asian-Americans on the one hand and underrepresented minorities on the other."

Asian-Americans are the single largest ethnic group among UC's 173,000 undergraduates.
In 2008, they accounted for 40% at UCLA and 43% at UC Berkeley — the two most selective campuses in the UC system — as well as 50% at UC San Diego and 54% at UC Irvine.

Asian-Americans are about 12% of California's population and 4% of the U.S. population overall.

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mbig said:

Again, you must be kidding.

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mbig said:

Some campuses ( and probably all the good ones to some degree), such as UCLA I previously mentioned, and all the Ivy League schools as well would be even more heavily Asian were it not for quotas Against them.

New UC admissions policy angers Asians - US news - Life - Race & ethnicity | NBC News
4/24/2009
UC/UCLA is more Asian than White!

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Lachean said:

Why must I be? What in "I'm not joking" suggests I'm kidding? I was quoting YOUR SOURCE when I said there was no explicit quota.

Or is "you must be kidding" your only opening, with no respect to when its relevant?

I'll give this link a shot, but if it doesn't say what you say it does like the last one... don't assume I am kidding when I point this out to you.

Edit: LOL from your source they're already at least 40% of the undergrads... and you cite this as an example of they're not being represented?!? 40% is the MAJORITY, this article is about affirmative action for whites. I don't think you understood my initial post at all... or you must be kidding.

Also, UC isn't Ivy League.

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mbig said:

You must be joking.
It's way past well known Asians are 'quota-ed' out of Ivy League AND other desirable schools because if they weren't they'd make Campuses well more Asian than Jewish.
Ivy League schools would have to bump out a huge amount of other applicants if admissions were fair.
UCLA would be serving chicken soup with Wontons and Matzah balls.
There have been Thousands and Thousands of articles on this well known Fact.
I don't even know where to start so:
https://www.google.com/search?q=Asi...34,d.dmQ&fp=6abbf1ee7d79dff7&biw=1393&bih=723
Note I just googled the more neutral 'Asians Ivy League' without using 'quota' or discrimination' which would have yielded even stronger declarations.

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mbig said:

"give it a shot". It only takes a minute to read before responding.
This isn't IM. You can read it for a minute or two THEN respond.

The Main point?
You are already well Refuted in your claim that [paraphrase] 'if Asians were so smart they would be doing similarly to Jews in Ivy League colleges'.
They already are and would be doing even better were it not for quotas against them.
This isn't even a debate at this point, or any point.
Lachean:
The Only reason we are even having this exchange is you had a big Blind spot in re a Well known Fact.


EDIT: See Dittohead post below.

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Lachean said:

Source for this claim? Please give me a link referring to majority asians in the Ivy League as opposed to UC.

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myself from just above said:

The Main point?
You are already well Refuted in your claim that [paraphrase] 'if Asians were so smart they would be doing similarly to Jews in Ivy League colleges'.
They already are and would be doing even better were it not for quotas against them.
This isn't even a debate at this point, or any point.
Lachean:
The Only reason we are even having this exchange is you had a big Blind spot in re a Well known Fact.

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mbig said:

?
You quoted a post but completely MIScharacterized it.
This is beyond 'strawman' into complete dissociation.
I said they ARE already doing as well as Jews.. what 'majority'.


Again.
This 'debate' is over.
The cause for this exchange even happening?
Lachean had no clue that Asians WERE doing similarly well to Jews/had disproportionately very high representation at Ivy League schools. Contrary to his claim/condition-for-intelligence on the last page.
Lachean: "...If they were so smart/hard working they too would disproportionally take up place in the Ivy Leagues.."

Again: they already do take up disproportionate Ivy League places and only quotas prevent it from being higher. (same with Jews)

EDIT: see for one:
Statistics Indicate an Ivy League Asian Quota - Room for Debate - NYTimes.com

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Lachean said:

Mischaracterized? Your source itself explicity stated that there was no explicit quota, only an implicit one. If quoting your sources word for word constitutes mischaracterization, then you are beyond helping and I am done with the likes of you.

Why would a bother with another one of your sources when none of them say what you claim they do. Your example of disproportionally taking up place in the Ivy leagues WASN'T EVEN AN IVY LEAGUE SCHOOL, it was UC you utter waste of my time.

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Lachean in his second to last said:

Please give me a link referring to Majority Asians in the Ivy League as opposed to UC.

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GottaGo said:

My sister in law is Filipino, smart as a whip. Well, book smart, not on the same level with street smart.

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solletica said:

Being book smart w/no street smarts is a recipe for financial suicide.

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mbig said:

You're so dissociative, (or 'quoting' so grotesquely) debate is impossible.
You quoted my post that said NOTHING about "Majority" AS IF it did.

Therefore I had to requote myself showing no such claim was made.. AND..

that you still conspicuously avoid "The Main Point".. your being refuted on the FACT that Asians, Like Jews, ARE already and highly "disproportionately" represented at Ivy League Schools.
YOUR condition for 'smart' WAS met/had already been met... unbeknownst to you.

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Lachean said:

No, it hasn't. I am underwhelmed by you and your attempt at feigning injustice.

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http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2012/12/19/fears-of-an-asian-quota-in-the-ivy-league/statistics-indicate-an-ivy-league-asian-quota said:

Statistics Indicate an Ivy League Asian Quota
Ron Unz is a software developer and publisher of The American Conservative, where he elaborated on these thoughts in a recent article . He is a graduate of Harvard University.
UPDATED MAY 9, 2013, 2:50 PM

Just as their predecessors of the 1920s always denied the existence of “Jewish quotas,” top officials at Harvard, Yale, Princeton and the other Ivy League schools today strongly deny the existence of “Asian quotas.” But there exists powerful statistical evidence to the contrary.

Each year, American universities provide their racial enrollment data to the National Center for Education Statistics, which makes this information available online. After the Justice Department closed an investigation in the early 1990s into charges that Harvard University discriminated against Asian-American applicants, Harvard’s reported enrollment of Asian-Americans began gradually declining, falling from 20.6% in 1993 to about 16.5% over most of the last decade.

This decline might seem small. But these same years brought a huge increase in America’s college-age Asian population, which roughly doubled between 1992 and 2011, while non-Hispanic white numbers remained almost unchanged. Thus, according to official statistics, the percentage of Asian-Americans enrolled at Harvard fell by more than 50% over the last two decades, while the percentage of whites changed little. This decline in relative Asian-American enrollment was actually larger than the impact of Harvard’s 1925 Jewish quota, which reduced Jewish freshmen from 27.6% to 15%.

The percentages of college-age Asian-Americans enrolled at most of the other Ivy League schools also fell during this same period, and over the last few years Asian enrollments across these different universities have converged to a very similar level and remained static over time. This raises suspicions of a joint Ivy League policy to restrict Asian-American numbers to a particular percentage.

Meanwhile, the California Institute of Technology follows a highly selective but strictly race-neutral admissions policy, and its enrollment of Asian-Americans has grown almost exactly in line with the growth of the Asian-American population.

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http://www.dailycal.org/2013/02/11/the-ivy-leagues-asian-problem/ said:

"...It’s common knowledge among those familiar with the admissions process that Asian students applying to Ivy League schools are at a disadvantage. Indeed, many Asian applicants try to conceal their ethnic backgrounds from admissions committees.

Late last year, in a 30,000 word article in The American Conservative, Roy Unz marshaled overwhelming evidence to validate Asian students’ concerns. A summary of his findings: First, the strength of Asian students’ academic performance is staggering, and has grown more impressive over the years. Though they make up only about 5 percent of the population, Unz estimates that Asian students represent about 28% of National Merit Semifinalists — the top 0.5 percent of scorers on the PSAT — far higher than their enrollment at Ivy League schools.

According to Unz, in the 1980s and 1990s, the percentage of Asian students at Ivy League colleges steadily increased. But in the last decade or so, even as the Asian population steadily increased (it roughly doubled since 1993), and Asian academic performance continued to improve, the proportion of Asians enrolled in Ivy League colleges reached a plateau or declined. More suspiciously, it has converged to roughly 16% at each Ivy League school for the past five years.

Meanwhile, according to Unz, at elite schools like UC Berkeley, UCLA and the California Institute of Technology — which use race-neutral admissions processes — the proportion of Asian students has risen to about 40% of the student body, tracking the increase in the population of college-age Asians. To Unz, this disparity is strong evidence of an unofficial quota system at elite private universities.

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http://cornellsun.com/section/opinion/content/2011/11/14/no-asians-need-apply said:

NOVEMBER 14, 2011
BY JUDAH BELLIN

My father likes to tell a story about my grandfather, a former professor at Columbia’s school of public health. At a meeting with colleagues in the faculty club at Cornell Hospital, he noticed the presence of Jews, Italians and other ethnic groups at the table, and recalled the ugly history of ethnic discrimination in college and medical school admissions. “Years ago they wouldn’t admit us into this school,” he remarked. “Now look where we are.”

When will Asians have this moment?

It’s hard to deny that the admissions process is stacked against Asian students.
A study on affirmative action by Princeton sociologist Thomas Espenshade showed that when numerous factors are controlled for,
** Hispanic students receive a admissions boost equivalent to around 130 points on the SAT, while black students receive a boost of 310 points.
Asian students, however, face a 140 point penalty.**
It was therefore no surprise when, after California outlawed the use of racial preferences in admissions, the representation of Asian Americans jumped significantly at University of California schools.".."

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http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/12/04/some-asian-students-dont-_n_1128037.html said:

"..."I didn't want to put `Asian' down," Olmstead says, "because my mom told me there's discrimination against Asians in the application process."
For years, many Asian-Americans have been convinced that it's harder for them to gain admission to the nation's top colleges.
[......]
Now, an unknown number of students are responding to this concern by declining to identify themselves as Asian on their applications.

For those with only one Asian parent, whose names don't give away their heritage, that decision can be relatively easy. Harder are the questions that it raises: What's behind the admissions difficulties? What, exactly, is an Asian-American – and is being one a choice?

Olmstead is a freshman at Harvard and a member of HAPA, the Half-Asian People's Association. In high school she had a perfect 4.0 grade-point average and scored 2150 out of a possible 2400 on the SAT, which she calls "pretty low."

College applications ask for parent information, so Olmstead knows that admissions officers could figure out a student's background that way. She did write in the word "multiracial" on her own application.

Still, she would advise students with one Asian parent to "check whatever race is not Asian."

"Not to really generalize, but a lot of Asians, they have Perfect SATs, perfect GPAs, ... so it's hard to let them all in," Olmstead says.

Amalia Halikias is a Yale freshman whose mother was born in America to Chinese immigrants; her father is a Greek immigrant. She also checked only the "white" box on her application.

"As someone who was applying with relatively strong scores, I didn't want to be grouped into that stereotype," Halikias says. "I didn't want to be written off as one of the 1.4 billion Asians that were applying."
[.......]
"...Studies show that Asian-Americans meet these colleges' admissions standards far Out of Proportion to their 6% representation in the U.S. population, and that they often need test scores hundreds of points higher than applicants from other ethnic groups to have an equal chance of admission. Critics say these numbers, along with the fact that some top colleges with race-blind admissions have double the Asian percentage of Ivy League schools, prove the existence of discrimination.
[......]
"...Asian students have higher average SAT scores than any other group, including whites. A study by Princeton sociologist Thomas Espenshade examined applicants to top colleges from 1997, when the maximum SAT score was 1600 (today it's 2400).
Espenshade found that Asian-Americans needed a 1550 SAT to have an equal chance of getting into an elite college as white students with a 1410 or black students with an 1100.

Top schools that don't ask about race in admissions process have very high percentages of Asian students. The California Institute of Technology, a private school that chooses Not to consider race, is about one-third Asian. (13% of California residents have Asian heritage.) The University of California-Berkeley, which is forbidden by state law to consider race in admissions, is more than 40% Asian – up from about 20% before the law was passed.

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Dittohead not! said:

UCLA is already jokingly referred to as the "University of Caucasians Lost among Asians."

and racial quotas are still an abomination.

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Mr. Invisible said:

There are No Racial Quotas Whatsoever. Racial Quotas, Harvard, and the Legacy of Bakke | National Review Online

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For almost 35 years, college-admissions decisions in America have been governed by the continuing legacy of University of California v. Bakke, in which a fragmented U.S. Supreme Court struck down the use of racial quotas but affirmed the legitimacy of considering race as one factor among several. The justices are now revisiting these crucial national issues in the pending Fisher v. University of Texas decision.

According to many observers, a crucial factor in the original 1978 ruling may have been the amicus brief filed by Harvard University. America’s oldest and most prestigious academic institution emphasized that its “holistic” admissions process allowed for the creation of a racially diversified student body while avoiding any “quota system.” In fact, Justice Lewis Powell’s majority opinion cited Harvard’s approach as exemplary, suggesting it demonstrated that well-intentioned and determined university administrators could achieve ethnic diversity without using quotas.

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MR-I's article contuinues said:

In the decades that followed, Harvard and its Ivy League allies redoubled their public advocacy of racial diversity via holistic admissions. When California’s Proposition 209 propelled the affirmative-action debate back onto the national stage during the 1990s, Derek Bok and William Bowen, former presidents of Harvard and Princeton respectively, published 'The Shape of the River', a weighty and influential volume that made the case for achieving academic racial diversity using the non-quota Ivy League methods already endorsed by the high court. Over the years, advocacy of “a holistic admissions system” as practiced by Harvard has become a favored mantra among diversity advocates in higher education.

But what if all these claims were simply fraudulent?

I recently published a lengthy article analyzing the admissions policies of America’s Ivy League universities; one of my main points was that these policies coincide with a very suspicious pattern of Asian-American enrollments.

Over the last 20 years, America’s population of college-age Asian Americans has roughly doubled; but during this same period, the number admitted to Harvard and most other Ivy League schools has held steady or even declined, despite significant improvement in Asian academic performance. Furthermore, the Asian percentages at all Ivy League schools have recently converged to a very narrow range and remained static over time, which seems quite suspicious.

Meanwhile, the Californian Institute of Technology (Caltech) follows a highly selective but strictly race-neutral admissions policy, and its enrollment of Asian Americans has grown almost exactly in line with the growth of the Asian-American population.
The stark difference between these two admissions policies is evident in this graph of comparative enrollment:
[I already posted this on the last page]

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more Mr Unz said:

Top officials at Harvard, Yale, and Princeton today strenuously deny the existence of Asian-American quotas, but their predecessors had similarly denied the existence of Jewish quotas in the 1920s, now universally acknowledged to have existed. In fact, the large growth in the Asian-American population means that the fraction attending Harvard has fallen by more than 50% since the early 1990s, a decline considerably greater than the decline Jews experienced after the implementation of secret quotas in 1925.

Based on these officially reported enrollment statistics, the Evidence of Ivy League racial quotas seems Overwhelming to many outside observers. The liberal New York Times recently ran a forum on the topic, and a large majority of its commenters were scathing in their criticism of the Harvard public-relations officerp who defended his university’s position.

S. B. Woo, founding president of 80-20, a national Asian-American advocacy organization that strongly supported President Obama’s reelection, participated in the New York Times forum, entitling his contribution “Discrimination Is Obvious.” He argued that “the Credibility of elite colleges Suffers” when they Deny the Clear Evidence that they “set a Quota for Asian students,” and he claimed that “America’s core value of equal opportunity is being trampled.” Liberal and left-wing pundits from publications such as The Atlantic and The Washington Monthly have similarly ridiculed Harvard’s blatant dishonesty in the matter.

Suppose we accept the overwhelming statistical evidence that the admissions offices of Harvard and other Ivy League schools have been quietly following an illegal Asian-American quota system for at least the last couple of decades. ....

If the “Harvard Holistic Model” has actually amounted to Racial Quotas in Disguise, then a central pillar of the modern legal foundation of affirmative action in college admissions going back to Bakke may have been based on fraud. Perhaps the justices of the Supreme Court should take these facts into consideration as they formulate their current ruling in the Fisher case.

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mbig said:

You continue to post NOTHING but gratuitous/empty objection: 'No'.

I posted two articles, one in good part, showing the Massive over-representation of Asians at UC/UC-Berkely/SD/Irvine. Another directly addressing the Ivy League claim.
Asians, roughly 4% of the population make up 16.5% of the Ivy League.
This is only down from 20%+, the second article I posted explains, due to quotas.
The second:


Others:

IOW (and again), Asians students are roughly 3x over-represented at Ivy League schools and it would be 4x or 5x or maybe 6x without quotas.

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mbig said:

I guess you didn't read, didn't understand, or are intentionally Mischaracterizing your own article. (!)
The same Unz who I cited.

One would Not have to read more than the first few brief paragraphs to understand there ARE Still Effective quotas if not official ones.
So the use of "whatsoever" is at best, misleading.

The article you call 'no quotas whatsoever'.
[I used Unz but now] YOUR Link.


That's right "holistic" admissions "for the creation of a Racially diverse student body".
IOW, a pure meritocratic student body of say 30% Jews, 30% Asians, would Not really reflect the overall population and not be holistic/representative/diverse enough; especially considering the fact it/they would wipe at most Black and Hispanic admissions who ie, Can score 300-500 points lower on combined SATs and still get in.
But that would not be "holistic".


IOW, Cal Tech, (voted Best Univ in the World by some BBC News - US dominates university global rankings) who has True Race Neutral/"No quota" admissions, has doubled it's Asians consistent with their population increase/achievement.. but not Ivy's.

Mebbe you should read more than the first paragraph.
The Unz study/opinion is the biggest advocate that there ARE [stealth] racial quotas imposed on
Asians.

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Mr. Invisible said:

To Mbig:

While you argue that there is anti-Asian bias in regards to colleges, there does not seem to be much evidence of that as reported by NYT.

Discrimination Investigations End at Princeton and Harvard - NYTimes.com
The National Association for College Admission Counseling states that there are no racial quotas and that the number of schools that consider race when students are applying are in the minority.
http://www.nacacnet.org/issues-advocacy/policy/Documents/diversity_mythvsfact.pdf

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[..........]
Toward a Pure Meritocracy

Of the top two dozen or so elite universities in America only one has managed both to avoid the craziness of the post-60s intellectual fads, and to establish something pretty close to a pure meritocracy -- California Institute of Technology, which has not received the general recognition among academics that it clearly deserves.

The statistics on Caltech's students and faculty are simply spellbinding. An entering Caltech freshman last year who received a 770 on the math SAT would be exceeded in this area by three-quarters of his fellow entering freshmen.
Many Caltech freshmen got a perfect 800 on their math SAT, while a near-perfect 1560 combination score placed an incoming freshmen at only the 75th percentile of his entering classmates. A combined SAT score of 1470 (the 99th percentile by national standards) placed an entering Caltech freshman at only the 25th percentile among his fellow students. (At Harvard and Princeton, by contrast, the 25th percentile is reached by a score of only 1380).
All recent Caltech undergraduates have scored 700 or above on the math SAT, and far from being a bunch of inarticulate science and math geeks, the vast majority have scored over 700 on the English verbal SAT as well. Most Caltech matriculants have also taken numerous Advanced Placement courses in high school, and attained perfect scores on their AP exams. In short, Caltech is interested in enrolling only the academically most accomplished and advanced students, who have a genuine passion for the STEM subjects (science, technology, engineering, mathematics), and virtually all of its entering students have achieved at the 98th or 99th percentile in terms of their scores on competitive national exams.

What this means is that at Caltech, there are no dumb jocks, dumb legacies, or dumb Affirmative Action students. It is clear from its published statistics that the non-academic criteria that preoccupy admissions committees at all other elite universities count for little at this beacon of pure meritocracy. Perhaps the most striking difference from all other elite universities -- including institutions like MIT and the University of Chicago which forgo athletic recruitment -- is Caltech's complete Indifference to Racial balancing.

In a state and a region of the country with the largest Hispanic population, Caltech's entering freshmen class in 2008 was less than 6% Hispanic (13 out of 236).
The unwillingness to lower standards for a larger Black representation is even more striking -- less than 1% (2/236) of Caltech's 2008 entering freshmen were listed as "non-Hispanic black".
This "Underrepresentation" of Blacks and Hispanics, of course, was more than made up for by the Huge "Overrepresentation" of Asians.
Only 4% of the U.S. population, Asians made up a whopping 40% of the incoming freshmen class in 2008, a slightly larger proportion than the 39% figure for whites.
Applicants to Caltech are clearly seen as representing Only themselves and their own Individual merit and achievement, Not their Race or their ethnic group.
As a professor at Caltech who has taught there for many years explained to me in an email, "We try, like our competitors, very, very hard to find, recruit, and nurture underrepresented minorities but We won't bend our standards."
[.......]

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Infinite Chaos said:

There was once a time when "holistic" meant looking at the larger picture. In admissions this meant looking at extra curricular activities / special interests / character / personality / work ethic etc etc. So you could have two very similar candidates but you might choose the one who brought extra ability to the table or who did all sorts of community related things which would enrich your university.

Guess that big old pond really has changed the English language and meanings of words for some.

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Asian students have higher average SAT scores than any other group, including whites. A study by Princeton sociologist Thomas Espenshade examined applicants to top colleges from 1997, when the maximum SAT score was 1600 (today it's 2400).
Espenshade found that Asian-Americans needed a 1550 SAT to have an equal chance of getting into an elite college as white students with a 1410 or black students with an 1100.

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mbig said:

-- Innncoherent --

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