Iriemon

Not there's an paradox.

__________________
Matthew 5:9

bhkad

Did someone say a pair o' docs?

__________________
But, when all is said and done, Senator McCain has not spent decades aiding and abetting people who hate America. http://jewishworldreview.com/cols/sowell060508.php3

Monk-Eye

"Collective Idiots"

donsutherland1, thank you for the informative post.

It seems this forum is stocked with morons, short on history lessons, that cannot discern the stark reality of ideology from its actual implementation, that are capable of distinguishing between elected parties that dismantle elections, and progressive change via a representative government.

The US further has a president and administration uneducated in the concept of liberal democracy (link) as opposed to a simpleton's notion of democracy as abuse of individual liberty by the masses.

__________________
Hanged Man
Melpomene

DivineComedy

A topic that deserves something more than propaganda. It deserves a freaking prayer. What is the use… Propaganda appears to be all you understand.

Musharraf came to power during the Clinton administration just like the Ayatollah (Iran) and Saddam (Iraq) happened during Carter, not to mention the invasion of Afghanistan by the USSR and the start of the Mujahideen by Jimmy Carter and Zbigniew Brzezinski (“Terrorism is not an enemy but a technique of warfare -- political intimidation through the killing of unarmed non-combatants”), so are we seeing a pattern here?

No (I can make one), but your promotion of propaganda about "liberation" being sold in the absence of WMD is clearly what I would expect from a “liberal“ terrorist propagandist:

“Whereas the Iraq Liberation Act (Public Law 105-338) expressed the sense of Congress that it should be the policy of the United States to support efforts to remove from power the current Iraqi regime and promote the emergence of a democratic government to replace that regime;”
Joint Resolution to Authorize the Use of United States Armed Forces Against Iraq

“A brutal, oppressive dictator, guilty of personally murdering and condoning murder and torture, grotesque violence against women, execution of political opponents, a war criminal who used chemical weapons against another nation and, of course, as we know, against his own people, the Kurds. He has diverted funds from the Oil-for-Food program, intended by the international community to go to his own people. He has supported and harbored terrorist groups, particularly radical Palestinian groups such as Abu Nidal, and he has given money to families of suicide murderers in Israel.

I mention these not because they are a cause to go to war in and of themselves, as the President previously suggested, but because they tell a lot about the threat of the weapons of mass destruction and the nature of this man. We should not go to war because these things are in his past, but we should be prepared to go to war because of what they tell us about the future.” (TEXT FROM THE SPEECH JOHN KERRY MADE ON THE SENATE FLOOR October 9, 2002) {Bold emphasis added for the hysterically blind}

“I would have preferred that the President agree to the approach drafted by Senators Biden and Lugar because that resolution would authorize the use of force for the explicit purpose of disarming Iraq and countering the threat posed by Iraq's weapons of mass destruction.” (TEXT FROM THE SPEECH JOHN KERRY MADE ON THE SENATE FLOOR October 9, 2002)

“Let me be clear: I am voting to give this authority to the President for one reason and one reason only: to disarm Iraq of weapons of mass destruction if we cannot accomplish that objective through new tough weapons inspections.” (TEXT FROM THE SPEECH JOHN KERRY MADE ON THE SENATE FLOOR October 9, 2002)

“H32. Requires Iraq to inform the Security Council that it will not commit or support any act of international terrorism or allow any organization directed towards commission of such acts to operate within its territory and to condemn unequivocally and renounce all acts, methods and practices of terrorism;
I
33. Declares that, upon official notification by Iraq to the Secretary-General and to the Security Council of its acceptance of the provisions above, a formal cease-fire is effective between Iraq and Kuwait and the Member States cooperating with Kuwait in accordance with resolution 678 (1990);” RESOLUTION 687 (1991) Adopted by the Security Council at its 2981st meeting, on 3 April 1991

“March 5, 2003: Bus bombing in Haifa. U.S. citizens killed: Abigail Leitel, 14, who was born in Lebanon, New Hampshire.” http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/...usvictims.html

“It seemed to me that your previous remarks were speaking about terrorism as a whole when we were in fact talking about a douche bag on a bus. While possibly represented by a terrorist organization, this man/woman is not terrorism.” (Gandhi>Bush)
http://www.debatepolitics.com/archiv...tml#post256432 (Nonviolence vs. Islamic Terrorism)

Spare me the “liberal“ crap, I have already been there!

“The suicide bomber was 20 years old, a student of the Hebron Polytechnic University (from which a large number of suicide bombers have emerged) and a member of the Hamas terrorist organization.” http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/861590/posts

March 13, 2003: “(CBS) Saddam Hussein has distributed $260,000 to 26 families of Palestinians killed in 29 months of fighting with Israel, including a $10,000 check to the family of a Hamas suicide bomber.

In a packed banquet hall on Wednesday, the families came one-by-one to receive their $10,000 checks. A large banner said: ‘The Arab Baath Party Welcomes the Families of the Martyrs for the Distribution of Blessings of Saddam Hussein.’“ http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/

*****

One Iraq, Two Iraq, Three Iraq!

“Playing by the rules of warfare”

*****

"Pakistan looks like it is one bullet away from…"
http://www.debatepolitics.com/archiv...tml#post548522 (Clone19; Islam, a religion of peace?)

__________________
“[59.14] They will not fight against you in a body save in fortified towns or from behind walls; their fighting between them is severe, you may think them as one body, and their hearts are disunited; that is because they are a people who have no sense.”

Yeah, a wall and a border patrol will protect us. {sound of laughter}

cascadian

Hmmm.... doesn't seem to be functioning too normally at the moment whatever it's intent is. I see no reason to think it's going to return to normalcy soon.

To be fair, Musharraf seems rather kindly by the standards of someone seizing power through a military coup. I don't think he aims towards totalitarianism, but his oft given promises for democracy keep getting broken.

And what makes you think that those discussions haven't already been had? The writing has been on the wall for this to come to a head for months. If the US could do something successfully along those lines they would have and this wouldn't have happened.

The US isn't going to do much more than soft pedal this and give mild admonishments to try to save face.

If such measures actually threaten the stability of his government than he will be forced to respond to them.

Once again this situation is not a huge surprise and it has been building for some time. If that was sufficient this wouldn't have happened.
Hmm... a tie between economic opportunity and violent political extremism. Very interesting.

I have skepticism about this, but I can hold out hope that it's possible there's some way to package humanitarian aid without it appearing as some kind of reward for anti-democratic behavior.

Hah! Fat chance on that one. I think you can stop holding your breath.

__________________
"Fear is the mind killer."
~Bene Gesserit

Iriemon

Yes, you are blaming Democratics for these leaders coming to power, but say I'm the one who engages in propoganda! LMAO!

By the way Ahmadinejad was elected in Iran, Hamas was elected in Palestine, since Bush took power, so are we seeing a pattern here?


According to the president, there was only one issue that made him take us to war in Iraq>

America will be making only one determination: is Iraq meeting the terms of the Security Council resolution [1441] or not?... If Iraq fails to fully comply, the United States and other nations will disarm Saddam Hussein."
— President George W. Bush
November 8, 2002, the day the UN Security Council
passed Resolution 1441


"The world needs him [Saddam Hussein] to answer a single question: Has the Iraqi regime fully and unconditionally disarmed, as required by Resolution 1441, or has it not?"
— President George W. Bush
press conference, March 6, 2003

So your point is we really went to war because Hussein gave money to Palesetian family survivors of fighters who died in their fight against Isreal?

You know, I suspect there is a lot of truth to that, but when I suggest it folks like TOT claim I'm being anti-semetic.

cascadian

If you're trying to make a partisan issue of the support of the terrorism mentioning the Mujahideen, doesn't help your case. Sure it was initiated by Carter, but it initially enjoyed bipartisan support and was later carried out rather enthusiastically by Reagan as a cornerstone of the "Reagan Doctrine"

Red_Dave

If pakistans Junta is only concerned with subverting democracy in order to stop the islamists then why is it trying to arrest [secular] opossistion leaders like Imran Kahn? The islamists may serve as a convenient excuse but the Junta's real enemy is democracy itself

DivineComedy

No, Iriemon I am not blaming the Democratic party for those leaders coming to power, as not being a Georgia boy you could not know what Jimmy Carter was, anymore than I blame Reagan for his and MY naive support for the Mujahideen against the Soviet aggression:

Before:

“We have no desire to be the world's policeman. But America does want to be the world's peacemaker...I'm grateful that in the past year, as in the year before, no American has died in combat anywhere in the world. And in Iran, Nicaragua, Cyprus, Namibia, and Rhodesia, our country is working for peaceful solutions to dangerous conflicts…The new foundation of international cooperation that we seek excludes no nation. Cooperation with the Soviet Union serves the cause of peace…”
State of the Union Address 1979

After:

“This last few months has not been an easy time for any of us. As we meet tonight, it has never been more clear that the state of our Union depends on the state of the world. And tonight, as throughout our own generation, freedom and peace in the world depend on the state of our Union…At this time in Iran, 50 Americans are still held captive, innocent victims of terrorism and anarchy. Also at this moment, massive Soviet troops are attempting to subjugate the fiercely independent and deeply religious people of Afghanistan. These two acts--one of international terrorism and one of military aggression--present a serious challenge to the United States of America and indeed to all the nations of the world. Together, we will meet these threats to peace.”
State of the Union Address 1980

My father had a Muslim guide during WWII, I have a picture of the guy, and he taught me to respect Muslims…I loved the movie Lawrence of Arabia and Ben Hur; on Christmas as a kid I would run through the house with a camel bell, jingle, jingle, jingle. So I didn’t even think that our government support for the Mujahideen would hurt us, I was wrong Iriemon, I was wrong, the Mujahideen was infected with a Cancer. A terrorist or mini-tyrant cannot be “fighting for an end to tyranny.” The Mujahideen or “strugglers” is only terrorist if the “Islam” it supports is terrorist, it is only Islamifascist if “Islam” is fascist. Let the Muslims struggle to prove themselves, it is not my struggle. The Saudi leader visiting the Vatican, good start.

We all make mistakes. And my propaganda suggesting that the Fabian socialists aided those leaders coming to power is admittedly made up, possible but made up, as it was evolved over time in response to the Democratic propaganda. None of it was put together until after a Democrat first posted a picture of Saddam shaking hands with Rummy, and another Democrat who did NOT know that Saddam came to power during the Carter administration used it as some proof of conspiracy as if Saddam was ours. I admit it is propaganda, which basically is just a list of facts.

Iran is not ours, and Carter is the one that said this:

1) “DUBLIN, Ireland -- Former President Jimmy Carter accused the U.S., Israel and the European Union on Tuesday of seeking to divide the Palestinian people by reopening aid to President Mahmoud Abbas' new government in the West Bank while denying the same to the Hamas-controlled Gaza Strip.
Carter, a Nobel Peace Prize winner who was addressing a human rights conference in Ireland, also said the Bush administration's refusal to accept Hamas' 2006 election victory was ‘criminal.’"
Carter Blasts US Policy on Palestinians - washingtonpost.com

“Playing by the rules of warfare”

Bringing up Iran (who is now an ally of the Soviets, the other French…) and Hamas only helps to strengthen the conspiracy element of my pattern:

"‘If the United Nations fails to respond to the Organization of the Islamic Conference (meeting in Tehran) then the Muslim world must act and defy these sanctions,’ Farrakhan told an audience of union representatives in the Iraqi capital.” (Louis Farrakhan)
South News Dec 12 1997

“If Iraq fails to fully comply, the United States and other nations will disarm Saddam Hussein."

There is absolutely nothing anti-Semitic about claiming that we went to war for Israel, a member state of the United Nations, whose membership should not be insulted by appeasement of Saddam’s terrorism which was in violation of 242, and 1441 due to violation of H32 of UN resolution 687. In the absence of WMD, which the failed Biden and Lugar amendment would have limited the authorization to, there is only Saddam’s support for terrorism that is serious enough for justifying WAR in One Iraq, Two Iraq, Three Iraq! Only a traitor would suggest that I am anti-Semitic, for believing that Saddam was in violation of H32 of UN resolution 687 after his final chance to fully comply.

Iriemon said: “So your point is we really went to war because Hussein gave money to Palesetian family survivors of fighters who died in their fight against Isreal?”

No, my point is that you are a terrorist propagandist for calling terrorists “fighters”:

“Howard Dean has said that Hamas’ soldiers—no one has ever called Hamas soldiers before. Howard Dean has said we don’t take sides in the Middle East. We took sides in 1948. Israel’s our ally. We always knew that. We can’t have a president who is conducting American foreign policy by press release clarification, and we’re certainly not going to beat George Bush that way.” (John Kerry Meet the Press (NBC News) - Sunday, January 11, 2004)

A guy that dresses up like a student, walks onto a bus, and blows up, is not a soldier, a fighter, or a martyr (like Saddam‘s regime claimed in violation of 1441). Only a terrorist supporter or propagandist would say a terrorist is a soldier, a fighter, or a martyr.

I think TOT only suspects you are anti-Semitic because of what else he believes you support. If you support Arabs killing the Jews according to the Hamas charter, you can‘t be anti-Semitic. That is according to the brother of a Palestinian I once worked with who encouraged me to read Mein Kampf, and who once told a joke when I mentioned how good German cars were; “If the Germans are so efficient, how come we have an Arab/Israeli problem?”

*****

On topic, I don’t believe it would be prudent to support unity government with Hamas or tyranny. As Jimmy Carter like support for unity government with civilian disguised Hamas suicide bombers to spare Palestinians from death, and then not supporting Musharraf would be hypocritical. We should not support something unless we feel it is benign. We don’t have to destroy something we do not support, but we must be clear in our diplomatic language.

Bergslagstroll

Yep the same goes for the supreme court.