Freedom of speech

anomaly · 03-05-05, 08:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gabo

The only part of government left would be the law of not initiating FORCE, and the justice system to enforce that law.

You and your comrades would have no state laws to "leave" from.

You could simply all sign a contract agreeing to abide by whatever commune rules you decide.

I support what you wish to do, so long as you do it voluntarily.

It's not fair to FORCE socialism followed by communism on the rest of us.

But you would be free to do it amongst yourselves if we had a free society.

-Every year the Republicrats increase federal spending
-Every year the Republicrats infringe upon more of our rights
-Every year the Republicrats give government more power

Also, while Bush cut many other programs, he still increased the size of the government.
Not only did he increase it to what inflation would allow, but went beyond that.

I guess "socialist" is not the right term.
They could be more properly dubbed "statist" or "authoritarian".

Of course people do not always respect others.

And that is why we need a law telling them to respect others, and a justice system to provide retribution if they don't respect others.

But that is simply all we need.

Anything else we include is done by personal opinion, and includes FORCING something on people that do not want it.

Again, I like the ends, but not your means of getting there. And I am glad that you finally stopped calling Republicans 'socialists'. Most Republicans and Democrats are now moderates, as usually happens in the two-party system.

Gabo · 03-06-05, 02:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by anomaly

Again, I like the ends, but not your means of getting there.

My way of getting there is simply allowing people to opt out of our oppressive government rules and regulations.

There would be nothing preventing those that enjoyed the rules and regulations from staying.

anomaly · 03-06-05, 08:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gabo

My way of getting there is simply allowing people to opt out of our oppressive government rules and regulations.

There would be nothing preventing those that enjoyed the rules and regulations from staying.

So you say. Take a look at Bush's SS plan. His plan will have those who want to take 2-4% out of their SS tax and put it in 'private accounts'. So how will Bush make up this lost money (estimates say that the loss will be roughly 2 trillion)? Here's how he'll have to do it: He'll either raise taxes on everyone, so that people opting to stay in SS (current retirees especially) will have the standard amount of benefits, or he'll have to cut benefits for retirees. So, here's what you've got: raised taxes on everyone to fund the then crippled program, or, those that do not trust the market and stay in the program (me) will see a dramatic decrease in benefits. So how is that fair?

Gabo · 03-06-05, 09:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by anomaly

So you say. Take a look at Bush's SS plan. His plan will have those who want to take 2-4% out of their SS tax and put it in 'private accounts'. So how will Bush make up this lost money (estimates say that the loss will be roughly 2 trillion)? Here's how he'll have to do it: He'll either raise taxes on everyone, so that people opting to stay in SS (current retirees especially) will have the standard amount of benefits, or he'll have to cut benefits for retirees. So, here's what you've got: raised taxes on everyone to fund the then crippled program, or, those that do not trust the market and stay in the program (me) will see a dramatic decrease in benefits. So how is that fair?

SS is completely different.

First off, Bush's plan doesn't give us REAL privatization.
It actually increases the government's hold on private business even more.

Secondly, SS is a redistribution program.

Some people (retirees) DEPEND upon others (workers) for the system to work. Because of this unstable nature of the program, it can easily be offset and cause many problems.

This is different than how government spending works. If I opt out of government programs, they do have less money to spend. But they also don't need to provide as much, because I wouldn't be receiving anything.

anomaly · 03-06-05, 10:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gabo

SS is completely different.

First off, Bush's plan doesn't give us REAL privatization.
It actually increases the government's hold on private business even more.

Secondly, SS is a redistribution program.

Some people (retirees) DEPEND upon others (workers) for the system to work. Because of this unstable nature of the program, it can easily be offset and cause many problems.

This is different than how government spending works. If I opt out of government programs, they do have less money to spend. But they also don't need to provide as much, because I wouldn't be receiving anything.

Huh? SS is the largest gov't program currently in existence. I believe (correct me if I'm wrong) the gov't spends more on only 'defense' each year. And I think you're wrong in saying that SS is naturally unstable because it is pay as you go, to me, a system always bringing in more money than it pays it is much more stable than the stock market.

alienken · 03-07-05, 07:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by anomaly

So you say. Take a look at Bush's SS plan. His plan will have those who want to take 2-4% out of their SS tax and put it in 'private accounts'. So how will Bush make up this lost money (estimates say that the loss will be roughly 2 trillion)? Here's how he'll have to do it: He'll either raise taxes on everyone, so that people opting to stay in SS (current retirees especially) will have the standard amount of benefits, or he'll have to cut benefits for retirees. So, here's what you've got: raised taxes on everyone to fund the then crippled program, or, those that do not trust the market and stay in the program (me) will see a dramatic decrease in benefits. So how is that fair?

There is a surplus in the SS system that can absorb the 2-4% easily. The problem is there is no SS account.Money collected for SS goes into the general fund to be used on whatever programs are created by the politicians (both sides are guilty rep and Dems)that want to be re-elected.There was always more people paying in then collecting causing the surplus. As people live longer, medical care more expensive, and baby boomers retire there will be more people collecting than paying. SS is slowly going broke and I think personal account is the begining of a solution.

anomaly · 03-07-05, 07:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alienken

There is a surplus in the SS system that can absorb the 2-4% easily. The problem is there is no SS account.Money collected for SS goes into the general fund to be used on whatever programs are created by the politicians (both sides are guilty rep and Dems)that want to be re-elected.There was always more people paying in then collecting causing the surplus. As people live longer, medical care more expensive, and baby boomers retire there will be more people collecting than paying. SS is slowly going broke and I think personal account is the begining of a solution.

Well yeah, exactly, that surplus is (and has been for quite awhile) being borrowed by the treasury. If this money would ever be repaid, there's your solution right there. But fat chance of that happening, even by 2042. So, since money is continually borrowed, we can't let 4% of people's taxes go into personal accounts. If that happens, the only way to recover this money for current retirees (two trillion dollars estimated) is to raise taxes, or lower retirees benefits. And besides, do you really want to have your retirement floating around in the market? What if the market is down when you retire? You won't have much of anything to retire on! And I am curious of your age, alien, since 40-55 yr old are being completely screwed by this plan (the reasons I mentioned above). But, to reiterate, perhaps the biggest problem is that Bush is not going to save SS through this plan, it is no reform, if his plan goes through we will slowly see the destruction of SS, since it will be underfunded. Then my generation of retirees (under 25) will really receive no SS when we retire. Perhaps you should check out my thrid link on my last post. It's very good.

alienken · 03-07-05, 08:30 PM

To anamoly....Yes I do want my money floating around in the market like a 401K. I trust the market more than politicians. We trusted them with our SS money and they spent it.

anomaly · 03-07-05, 10:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alienken

To anamoly....Yes I do want my money floating around in the market like a 401K. I trust the market more than politicians. We trusted them with our SS money and they spent it.

You do realize the risk of the market? If the market is down when you retire, you will take out less than you originally put in. This does not bode well for any retirement purposes. And you do realize that, with the governemnt running SS, you will, with a few minor changes, always see plenty of money to retire on? The market is suspect to fluctuations by nature, by that reason alone, and the fact that recessions and depressions are going to happen under capitalism, your retirement money should not go into the stock market. And again I wonder how old you are, because if you are 40-54, you will not have any time to see your money collect any gains from the market, and if the market is down when you retire, you will be taking out a fraction of what you put in.

vauge · 03-07-05, 10:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by anomaly

You do realize the risk of the market? If the market is down when you retire, you will take out less than you originally put in. This does not bode well for any retirement purposes.

An you realize that the funds they are proposing are very low risk. You also realize that over ANY 25 year span the market has never lost money - including the Great Depression. It would be hard to fathom anyone having less than what was put in.

03-07-05, 08:30 PM	#98
alienken Advisor Join Date: Jan 2005 Last Seen: 11-14-08 07:16 PM Location: near Houston, Texas Posts: 369 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts Lean:	Re: Freedom of speech To anamoly....Yes I do want my money floating around in the market like a 401K. I trust the market more than politicians. We trusted them with our SS money and they spent it.
	__________________ Bumper sticker idea - God is alive in heaven and there's a Texan in the White House. Life is GOOD!

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