Putting the ACORN Lies to Rest

danarhea · 10-14-08, 07:51 PM

John McCain committed a serious tactical blunder (in addition to other serious tactical blunders) in accusing Democrats of voter fraud through ACORN. Let me explain, step by step, and you will see that, instead of generating fake outrage for fake crimes, McCain should have tackled the economy, along with other issues.

1) Illegality in collecting names happens in both political parties.

Both political parties employ subcontractors to register voters and / or to get enough signatures to put a measure on the ballot. How do I know? From personal experience. After my wife and I got married, we debated where we were going to go on our honeymoon. After some discussion, we both felt that doing something for our country would be nice, and so we spent our honeymoon as subcontractors in Detroit gathering signatures for the Republican property tax reduction measure known, in 1972, as the Milliken proposal. We were paid by quota, and this is key.

2) The fault was not with the parties, but with the subcontractors.

While my wife and I, along with many others, collected signatures using above board means, a few did not. They picked names out of phone books, and made up names. I reported 2 who I found out were doing this, and they were booted from the campaign. However, others probably did not get caught, and those names ended up being used. Bear in mind that this is the Republican Party I am talking about, but also bear in mind that the Republican Party was not at fault. The fault lay with the subcontractors who abused the process to make money. Also note that there was a Democratic petition for tax relief too, and the Democrats were beset with the same problems.

3) ACORN uses the same system as the Democrats and Republicans use.

Just like Democrats and Republicans, ACORN also uses subcontractors. So why does anybody use subcontractors at all? Because nobody wants to do that kind of work for free. It is not easy working up to 12 hours a day, and without offering some kind of pay structure, you are simply not going to find enough volunteers to do it.

4) Voter registration fraud is NOT the same as voter fraud.

Subcontractors garnering the names of hundreds, or thousands, or even millions of fake signatures are not going to influence an election. Why? Because, of course, those people do NOT exist, and are therefore not going to show up at the polls. Tony Romo is not going to show up in Texas and Nevada at the same time, is he? Of course not.

5) Who is the victim of voter registration fraud?

Was a crime committed? Of course, but ACORN is just as much a victim here, if not more of a victim. After all, ACORN is the one who paid the subcontractors money, and were defrauded by the crooks. This is not about voters that don't exist showing up at the polls. That won't happen, but what DID happen is that ACORN was defrauded out of some of their money by unscrupulous subcontractors.

6) So what is all the bruhaha about?

Very simple. McCain, down and almost out in the polls, is desperately seeking an issue which will give him traction, and he is failing there too. He is toast. But, you know, toast is something McCain did NOT have to be. He could have run a good race, and could even be in a position to win this thing if he had concentrated in the issues, and not the innuendo. I said months ago that, if the Republican party did not attack Obama on the issues, but let the Karl Rove style politics of character assassination dominate their campaign, they were going to lose big. With the economy in the shape it is in, people don't want to hear smears of opponents. They want to know what the candidates are doing about the economic situation. While Obama has spoken in generalites, and has not been specific enough, he did all that was needed, because McCain did practically nothing, attacking Obama personally instead. And this is the reason for the McCain campaign's dramatic collapse. Today, I must sadly state that "I told you so", as it is now too late to save McCain's campaign.

7) McCain can still have the last word, though, by walking right up to Karl Rove, and punching his lame ass out.

RightinNYC · 10-14-08, 07:54 PM

You just based an entire "conclusive" analysis of this issue on your own personal experience and opinions. Do you have any evidence that this fraud is as common among right-leaning organizations as against left? Why is ACORN the only organization that is time and time again at the center of the massive electoral fraud investigations?

danarhea · 10-14-08, 08:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RightinNYC

You just based an entire "conclusive" analysis of this issue on your own personal experience and opinions. Do you have any evidence that this fraud is as common among right-leaning organizations as against left? Why is ACORN the only organization that is time and time again at the center of the massive electoral fraud investigations?

Since ACORN used subcontractors, that IS the issue, and one that I have personal experience with. It has nothing to do with an organization being right leaning or left leaning. ALL large organizations use subs. Its the only way you can get feet on the street.

As for ACORN itself, yes it happens a lot. I would not call them voter fraudsters, since nobody on the fake lists is going to show up on election day. Stupid for not vetting their subs a little better? Now that's another story.

RightinNYC · 10-14-08, 08:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by danarhea

Since ACORN used subcontractors, that IS the issue, and one that I have personal experience with. It has nothing to do with an organization being right leaning or left leaning. ALL large organizations use subs. Its the only way you can get feet on the street.

As for ACORN itself, yes it happens a lot. I would not call them voter fraudsters, since nobody on the fake lists is going to show up on election day. Stupid for not vetting their subs a little better? Now that's another story.

Except they did and do.

ACORN GROUP SUPPLIED NEARLY 4,000 FAKE VOTER REGISTRATIONS IN CLEVELAND AREA - New York Post

Quote:

The vote of Darnell Nash, one of four people subpoenaed in a Cuyahoga County probe of ACORN's voter-registration activities, was canceled and his case was turned over to local prosecutors and law enforcement, Board of Elections officials said yesterday.

Nash had registered to vote repeatedly from an address that belonged to a legitimately registered voter, officials said during a hearing at which the subpoenaed voters were to testify.

Board officials had contacted Nash this summer, questioned his address and told him to stop repeat registering.

But still, he breezed into Ohio election offices - the state allows early voting for president - reregistered with a fake address and cast a paper ballot, officials said.

"He came in on 9/30 and Mr. Nash again registered to vote at [someone else's] address, and he cast a ballot," said board official Jane Platten.

Nash did not turn up for the hearing.

danarhea · 10-14-08, 08:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RightinNYC

Except they did and do.

ACORN GROUP SUPPLIED NEARLY 4,000 FAKE VOTER REGISTRATIONS IN CLEVELAND AREA - New York Post

From your own article:

Quote:

Still, members of the bipartisan board downplayed any voter fraud.
And Platten insisted officials with ACORN have offered "any and all" help in probing the questionable activities. Katy Gall, the Ohio state director for ACORN, said her group is cooperating fully with the investigation.
She added that her group has fired anyone who was found soliciting duplicate registrations.

ACORN, whose political arm has endorsed Democratic nominee Barack Obama, has signed up more than 1.3 million voters for this cycle.

ACORN adviser Scott Levenson said, "If one of the 13,000 [people] we hired is potentially a bad apple in the bunch, we encourage the authorities to prosecute, as appropriate, anyone that did the wrong thing. We discipline [and] we fire workers who [abuse their position] . . . We encourage prosecutors to follow suit."

Panther · 10-14-08, 08:51 PM

ACORN is just a bipartisan organization only interested in helping people exercise their right to vote - and Ayers was just misunderstood.

Got it.

missypea · 10-14-08, 10:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by danarhea

John McCain committed a serious tactical blunder (in addition to other serious tactical blunders) in accusing Democrats of voter fraud through ACORN. Let me explain, step by step, and you will see that, instead of generating fake outrage for fake crimes, McCain should have tackled the economy, along with other issues.

1) Illegality in collecting names happens in both political parties.

Both political parties employ subcontractors to register voters and / or to get enough signatures to put a measure on the ballot. How do I know? From personal experience. After my wife and I got married, we debated where we were going to go on our honeymoon. After some discussion, we both felt that doing something for our country would be nice, and so we spent our honeymoon as subcontractors in Detroit gathering signatures for the Republican property tax reduction measure known, in 1972, as the Milliken proposal. We were paid by quota, and this is key.

2) The fault was not with the parties, but with the subcontractors.

While my wife and I, along with many others, collected signatures using above board means, a few did not. They picked names out of phone books, and made up names. I reported 2 who I found out were doing this, and they were booted from the campaign. However, others probably did not get caught, and those names ended up being used. Bear in mind that this is the Republican Party I am talking about, but also bear in mind that the Republican Party was not at fault. The fault lay with the subcontractors who abused the process to make money. Also note that there was a Democratic petition for tax relief too, and the Democrats were beset with the same problems.

3) ACORN uses the same system as the Democrats and Republicans use.

Just like Democrats and Republicans, ACORN also uses subcontractors. So why does anybody use subcontractors at all? Because nobody wants to do that kind of work for free. It is not easy working up to 12 hours a day, and without offering some kind of pay structure, you are simply not going to find enough volunteers to do it.

4) Voter registration fraud is NOT the same as voter fraud.

Subcontractors garnering the names of hundreds, or thousands, or even millions of fake signatures are not going to influence an election. Why? Because, of course, those people do NOT exist, and are therefore not going to show up at the polls. Tony Romo is not going to show up in Texas and Nevada at the same time, is he? Of course not.

5) Who is the victim of voter registration fraud?

Was a crime committed? Of course, but ACORN is just as much a victim here, if not more of a victim. After all, ACORN is the one who paid the subcontractors money, and were defrauded by the crooks. This is not about voters that don't exist showing up at the polls. That won't happen, but what DID happen is that ACORN was defrauded out of some of their money by unscrupulous subcontractors.

6) So what is all the bruhaha about?

Very simple. McCain, down and almost out in the polls, is desperately seeking an issue which will give him traction, and he is failing there too. He is toast. But, you know, toast is something McCain did NOT have to be. He could have run a good race, and could even be in a position to win this thing if he had concentrated in the issues, and not the innuendo. I said months ago that, if the Republican party did not attack Obama on the issues, but let the Karl Rove style politics of character assassination dominate their campaign, they were going to lose big. With the economy in the shape it is in, people don't want to hear smears of opponents. They want to know what the candidates are doing about the economic situation. While Obama has spoken in generalites, and has not been specific enough, he did all that was needed, because McCain did practically nothing, attacking Obama personally instead. And this is the reason for the McCain campaign's dramatic collapse. Today, I must sadly state that "I told you so", as it is now too late to save McCain's campaign.

7) McCain can still have the last word, though, by walking right up to Karl Rove, and punching his lame ass out.

Thanks, Dana. I especially liked that you had some personal involvement....makes the story more interesting to me

There's also this:

Quote:

Further, the Journal editorial also noted that Obama "served as a lawyer for Acorn in 1995, in a case against Illinois to increase access to the polls," but did not note that the Department of Justice, the League of Women Voters, and the League of United Latin American Citizens joined with ACORN as plaintiffs in the suit, which sought to force the state of Illinois to implement a federal voter-registration law.

Media Matters - WSJ editorial leaves out relevant information in smear of ACORN

redlobester · 10-14-08, 10:51 PM

I think there can be an issue with the absentee ballots.

That aside, it's kind of concerning that Obama essentially gave the organization $800K and seems to be rather flippant WRT what they did with it (surely some of that money went to paying those subcontractors). Do taxpayers care how their money is spent? I think they do. I think most people would expect some outrage when money is being used for fraudulent purposes. A good steward of that amount of money might want to consider it more than just a 'distraction.' This time it's not the taxpayers' money I guess, but, it doesn't exactly inspire confidence WRT to how he might similarly react if it were taxpayers' money.

I also don't like his trying to have it both ways, so to speak...on the one hand sueing CitiBank into essentially engaging in predatory loan practices (accusing them of being racist for not doing so), while now accusing people who have a problem with predatory voter registration of being racist (conservatives allegedly trying to suppress the vote of certain demographic groups).

redlobester · 10-14-08, 11:10 PM

The other thing that concerns me is does ACORN bus people to the polls on election day? How does that all work. Can they have a whole bunch of bogus registrations set up and then pull people off the street (for cigs or cash) and bus them off to the polls to vote? Pull bodies off the street to be stand-ins for the fraudulently registered voter? I am a legal permanent resident and when I lived in a larger city (Chicago) I was routinely bugged at the groc store (starting mid-way into an election year it seemed) to register to vote. I kept telling the different people asking if I were registered to vote that I was not legally able to vote. I was repeatedly told that I could

. So that makes me wonder if the fraud goes beyond the registration part. I know the spokesperson guy at the news conference today talked about the different piles and whatnot for screening. But, the question is, how deep does this run? Is there concern because they can come up with fraudulent registrations that are paired up with people they pile on buses on election day?

Also, what about illegal alien voters? What do they actually check out when they register people to vote?

Sir Loin · 10-15-08, 12:48 AM

Strong post D. Might not agree with all of your conclusions, but made me give the whole matter another look. A huge McCain mistake was not going into the Wright matters if he was gonna go negative. I suspect we will see Wright mentioned tomorrow night.

10-14-08, 07:51 PM	#1
danarhea Slayer of the DP Newsbot Dungeon Master Join Date: Aug 2005 Last Seen: Today 02:09 PM Location: Houston, TX Posts: 18,211 Thanks: 3,323 Thanked 7,014 Times in 3,383 Posts Lean: Conservative Gender: Total Awards: 1	Putting the ACORN Lies to Rest John McCain committed a serious tactical blunder (in addition to other serious tactical blunders) in accusing Democrats of voter fraud through ACORN. Let me explain, step by step, and you will see that, instead of generating fake outrage for fake crimes, McCain should have tackled the economy, along with other issues. 1) Illegality in collecting names happens in both political parties. Both political parties employ subcontractors to register voters and / or to get enough signatures to put a measure on the ballot. How do I know? From personal experience. After my wife and I got married, we debated where we were going to go on our honeymoon. After some discussion, we both felt that doing something for our country would be nice, and so we spent our honeymoon as subcontractors in Detroit gathering signatures for the Republican property tax reduction measure known, in 1972, as the Milliken proposal. We were paid by quota, and this is key. 2) The fault was not with the parties, but with the subcontractors. While my wife and I, along with many others, collected signatures using above board means, a few did not. They picked names out of phone books, and made up names. I reported 2 who I found out were doing this, and they were booted from the campaign. However, others probably did not get caught, and those names ended up being used. Bear in mind that this is the Republican Party I am talking about, but also bear in mind that the Republican Party was not at fault. The fault lay with the subcontractors who abused the process to make money. Also note that there was a Democratic petition for tax relief too, and the Democrats were beset with the same problems. 3) ACORN uses the same system as the Democrats and Republicans use. Just like Democrats and Republicans, ACORN also uses subcontractors. So why does anybody use subcontractors at all? Because nobody wants to do that kind of work for free. It is not easy working up to 12 hours a day, and without offering some kind of pay structure, you are simply not going to find enough volunteers to do it. 4) Voter registration fraud is NOT the same as voter fraud. Subcontractors garnering the names of hundreds, or thousands, or even millions of fake signatures are not going to influence an election. Why? Because, of course, those people do NOT exist, and are therefore not going to show up at the polls. Tony Romo is not going to show up in Texas and Nevada at the same time, is he? Of course not. 5) Who is the victim of voter registration fraud? Was a crime committed? Of course, but ACORN is just as much a victim here, if not more of a victim. After all, ACORN is the one who paid the subcontractors money, and were defrauded by the crooks. This is not about voters that don't exist showing up at the polls. That won't happen, but what DID happen is that ACORN was defrauded out of some of their money by unscrupulous subcontractors. 6) So what is all the bruhaha about? Very simple. McCain, down and almost out in the polls, is desperately seeking an issue which will give him traction, and he is failing there too. He is toast. But, you know, toast is something McCain did NOT have to be. He could have run a good race, and could even be in a position to win this thing if he had concentrated in the issues, and not the innuendo. I said months ago that, if the Republican party did not attack Obama on the issues, but let the Karl Rove style politics of character assassination dominate their campaign, they were going to lose big. With the economy in the shape it is in, people don't want to hear smears of opponents. They want to know what the candidates are doing about the economic situation. While Obama has spoken in generalites, and has not been specific enough, he did all that was needed, because McCain did practically nothing, attacking Obama personally instead. And this is the reason for the McCain campaign's dramatic collapse. Today, I must sadly state that "I told you so", as it is now too late to save McCain's campaign. 7) McCain can still have the last word, though, by walking right up to Karl Rove, and punching his lame ass out.
	__________________ Jack Kevorkian for President's Physician: 2012 http://danarhea.blogspot.com Last edited by danarhea; 10-14-08 at 08:10 PM.

10-14-08, 07:54 PM	#2
RightinNYC GIRTH 2.0 Mod team member Join Date: Mar 2005 Last Seen: Today 02:26 PM Location: New York, NY Posts: 21,284 Thanks: 2,416 Thanked 8,889 Times in 4,443 Posts Lean: Slightly Conservative Gender: Total Awards: 1	Re: Putting the ACORN Lies to Rest You just based an entire "conclusive" analysis of this issue on your own personal experience and opinions. Do you have any evidence that this fraud is as common among right-leaning organizations as against left? Why is ACORN the only organization that is time and time again at the center of the massive electoral fraud investigations?
	__________________ People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

10-14-08, 08:51 PM	#6
Panther Educator Join Date: Aug 2008 Last Seen: 10-27-08 03:38 PM Location: Charlotte, NC Posts: 1,214 Thanks: 95 Thanked 371 Times in 271 Posts Lean: Moderate Gender:	Re: Putting the ACORN Lies to Rest ACORN is just a bipartisan organization only interested in helping people exercise their right to vote - and Ayers was just misunderstood. Got it.
	__________________ Anagrams: Joe Biden and Barack Obama = A jerk and a bad, anemic boob. - or - Barack mad a babe joined on.

10-14-08, 10:51 PM	#8
redlobester User Join Date: Oct 2008 Last Seen: 10-22-08 09:05 PM Posts: 34 Thanks: 2 Thanked 12 Times in 9 Posts	Re: Putting the ACORN Lies to Rest I think there can be an issue with the absentee ballots. That aside, it's kind of concerning that Obama essentially gave the organization $800K and seems to be rather flippant WRT what they did with it (surely some of that money went to paying those subcontractors). Do taxpayers care how their money is spent? I think they do. I think most people would expect some outrage when money is being used for fraudulent purposes. A good steward of that amount of money might want to consider it more than just a 'distraction.' This time it's not the taxpayers' money I guess, but, it doesn't exactly inspire confidence WRT to how he might similarly react if it were taxpayers' money. I also don't like his trying to have it both ways, so to speak...on the one hand sueing CitiBank into essentially engaging in predatory loan practices (accusing them of being racist for not doing so), while now accusing people who have a problem with predatory voter registration of being racist (conservatives allegedly trying to suppress the vote of certain demographic groups).

10-14-08, 11:10 PM	#9
redlobester User Join Date: Oct 2008 Last Seen: 10-22-08 09:05 PM Posts: 34 Thanks: 2 Thanked 12 Times in 9 Posts	Re: Putting the ACORN Lies to Rest The other thing that concerns me is does ACORN bus people to the polls on election day? How does that all work. Can they have a whole bunch of bogus registrations set up and then pull people off the street (for cigs or cash) and bus them off to the polls to vote? Pull bodies off the street to be stand-ins for the fraudulently registered voter? I am a legal permanent resident and when I lived in a larger city (Chicago) I was routinely bugged at the groc store (starting mid-way into an election year it seemed) to register to vote. I kept telling the different people asking if I were registered to vote that I was not legally able to vote. I was repeatedly told that I could . So that makes me wonder if the fraud goes beyond the registration part. I know the spokesperson guy at the news conference today talked about the different piles and whatnot for screening. But, the question is, how deep does this run? Is there concern because they can come up with fraudulent registrations that are paired up with people they pile on buses on election day? Also, what about illegal alien voters? What do they actually check out when they register people to vote?

10-15-08, 12:48 AM	#10
Sir Loin Distillate of Mjolnir Join Date: Oct 2007 Last Seen: Today 09:45 AM Posts: 2,734 Thanks: 771 Thanked 824 Times in 545 Posts	Re: Putting the ACORN Lies to Rest Strong post D. Might not agree with all of your conclusions, but made me give the whole matter another look. A huge McCain mistake was not going into the Wright matters if he was gonna go negative. I suspect we will see Wright mentioned tomorrow night.
	Last edited by Sir Loin; 10-15-08 at 12:49 AM.

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