Desired: More info on Obama /Fanny /Freddie accusations by McCain.

Frolicking Dinosaurs · 09-19-08, 01:29 PM

Fact Check. Org has weighed in with info

danarhea · 09-19-08, 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SouthernDemocrat

I am going to make this as clear and simple as I possibly can. The current crisis is a result of the unregulated Credit Swap Market. Thats been established in previous posts and sourced.

So then the question is, what made the Credit Default Swap market possible and for that matter legal:

Bloomberg.com: Worldwide

Who authored and championed the bill? None other than Phil Gramm, McCain's former Chief Economic Advisor.

So, lets break this down:

1. The current crisis was made possible because of unregulated Credit Default Swaps.

2. Unregulated Credit Default Swaps were made possible by the Commodity Futures Modernization Act.

3. Phil Gramm authored and championed the Commodity Futures Modernization Act.

1) I agree with you that Phil Gramm authored the bill.

2) Bill Clinton signed the bill, and there was also a lot of support from Democrats on the bill. No political party is innocent. There is plenty of blame to go around.

3) However, having established points 1 and 2, Phil Gramm still remains the albatross around McCain's neck, so we are in agreement there.

JMak · 09-19-08, 01:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SouthernDemocrat

I am going to make this as clear and simple as I possibly can. The current crisis is a result of the unregulated Credit Swap Market. Thats been established in previous posts and sourced.

You can keep repeating this over and over. I am not debating the cause of this crisis. I am debating YOUR argument that Phil Gramm is uniquely and individually responsible for this crisis.

Quote:

So then the question is, what made the Credit Default Swap market possible and for that matter legal:
Bloomberg.com: Worldwide

Who authored and championed the bill? None other than Phil Gramm, McCain's former Chief Economic Advisor.

It looks like Gill already owned you on your dishonest characterization of Gramm's involvement, so I don't need to address this, I think the only remaining question is...how did you get this so wrong?

Did the web site you cribbed this allegation from simply get it wrong?
Did you know the Gramm didn't author or champion this legislation but decided to argue it anyway?
Was there a good faith effort on your part to verify the facts?

Seriously, how did you get this so wrong? Did you read David Corn's scathing article at Mother Jones blaming Gramm individually for the current economic mess? The same David Corn that was the first to reveal Joseph Wilson's wife was a covert employee at CIA?

JMak · 09-19-08, 01:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frolicking Dinosaurs

Fact Check. Org has weighed in with info

Weighed in with info not related to the McCain ad or speech comments from yesterday.

JMak · 09-19-08, 01:44 PM

BTW - maybe Southern Democrat would like to start a new thread to discuss his Phil Gramm business and leave this thread to talking about Obama relying on former Fannie and Freddie CEO for advice - whether it's about housing or selecting a VP.

John1234 · 09-19-08, 02:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JMak

What is it precisely that McCain said that you're looking for confirmation on.

Well, since all i did is listen to a speech this morning and have nothing written or linkable, I am hesitant to say.

The "General Impression" I got was that McCain was suggesting the Economic Crisis is Obama's fault because he is run by fanny / freddie.
But that is sort of like the plane on ebay crap.
They say one thing, and its not factually and technically incorrect.
But the wording, emphasis, and way the speech is layed out gives you a completely different Impression.
Does this make it a lie? Some think it does and some think it doesn't.
Legally these things are not lies at all.
Morally they are.

What I am wanting to know 2 pronged.
Once a link to McCain's speech is available, I'd like to know if it is correct or incorrect on a technical and factual level.
But i also want to know how correct or incorrect it is on a moral level.

First, nothing can be done with the exact wording of the speech.
But the moral part can be determined by simply determining whether or not Obama was part of the shady practices that led to the fall of our economy.

I saw the post with the factcheck link so I checked that out.

VERDICT
Partially true, but misleading. Donations don't come from companies. A list of employee contributions puts Obama second, but a different list including lobbyists and directors shows McCain getting more.

At least on this part of it, McCain was just doing the same old dirty politics.
And that is what I wanted to know.

Still waiting to find conclusive evidence that these Fanny / Freddie guys are part of Obama's staff.

JMak · 09-19-08, 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John1234

The "General Impression" I got was that McCain was suggesting the Economic Crisis is Obama's fault because he is run by fanny / freddie.

McCain certainly was not saying that.

Quote:

But that is sort of like the plane on ebay crap.

Now wait a second. If you don't know what McCain even said, then why are you drawing such analogies?

Quote:

They say one thing, and its not factually and technically incorrect.

Palin says she put the plane on eBay. That was absolutely accurate. McCain says that the plane sold on eBay. That was incorrect. I gave McCain the benefit of the doubt, like I do with Obama, and chalked it up as a mistake. I don't automatically assume that someone lied when they made a mistake. Do you?

Quote:

But the wording, emphasis, and way the speech is layed out gives you a completely different Impression.

You didn't see or hear the speech, but you're going to address how it was laid ut?

Quote:

Does this make it a lie? Some think it does and some think it doesn't.
Legally these things are not lies at all.
Morally they are.

Morally what? Legally what? I didn't know there was a legal definition of lie. I thought it was called perjury. Same principles involved, i.e., deliberate and intentional deceit.

Quote:

What I am wanting to know 2 pronged.
Once a link to McCain's speech is available, I'd like to know if it is correct or incorrect on a technical and factual level.
But i also want to know how correct or incorrect it is on a moral level.

Morally what? This makes no sense. I think maybe what you're trying to get at it is if McCain is technically correct whether there is any there there. It's the so what question.

It's a curious ad and speech that McCain made given that he's acknowledged that he's never been seriously interested in economics during his legislative career that he's now hitting Barack on his economic credentials.

Quote:

First, nothing can be done with the exact wording of the speech.
But the moral part can be determined by simply determining whether or not Obama was part of the shady practices that led to the fall of our economy.

You don't know what McCain said so why bother with the exercise?

Quote:

I saw the post with the factcheck link so I checked that out.

VERDICT
Partially true, but misleading. Donations don't come from companies. A list of employee contributions puts Obama second, but a different list including lobbyists and directors shows McCain getting more.

McCain wasn't arguing that Obama had a role in the current economic crisis or that Obama benefitted from the Fannie and Freddie failures.

Quote:

At least on this part of it, McCain was just doing the same old dirty politics.

You don;t know what he said but you're gonna conclude that it's the same old dirty politics?

Well, at least there's no doubting your intellectual dishonesty.

Quote:

And that is what I wanted to know.

You don't know but you've already drawn your conclusions...

Quote:

Still waiting to find conclusive evidence that these Fanny / Freddie guys are part of Obama's staff.

One, I already gave it to you.

Two, why are you still waiting? You've already made up your mind? This is the height of intellectual dishonesty.

John1234 · 09-19-08, 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JMak

McCain certainly was not saying that.

Now wait a second. If you don't know what McCain even said, then why are you drawing such analogies?

Palin says she put the plane on eBay. That was absolutely accurate. McCain says that the plane sold on eBay. That was incorrect. I gave McCain the benefit of the doubt, like I do with Obama, and chalked it up as a mistake. I don't automatically assume that someone lied when they made a mistake. Do you?

You didn't see or hear the speech, but you're going to address how it was laid ut?

Morally what? Legally what? I didn't know there was a legal definition of lie. I thought it was called perjury. Same principles involved, i.e., deliberate and intentional deceit.

Morally what? This makes no sense. I think maybe what you're trying to get at it is if McCain is technically correct whether there is any there there. It's the so what question.

It's a curious ad and speech that McCain made given that he's acknowledged that he's never been seriously interested in economics during his legislative career that he's now hitting Barack on his economic credentials.

You don't know what McCain said so why bother with the exercise?

McCain wasn't arguing that Obama had a role in the current economic crisis or that Obama benefitted from the Fannie and Freddie failures.

You don;t know what he said but you're gonna conclude that it's the same old dirty politics?

Well, at least there's no doubting your intellectual dishonesty.

You don't know but you've already drawn your conclusions...

One, I already gave it to you.

Two, why are you still waiting? You've already made up your mind? This is the height of intellectual dishonesty.

I don't know what all of this is about other than giving me a headache.

I wanted to evaluate the story on both a technical and a moral level and gave a good example of the difference.
The idea of something being technically part true but morally a lie, apparently goes over your head.
But the difference is essential and critical to how i view the candidate that I will vote for.
For example, if McCain is technically correct and morally wrong, it would have no effect on me at all.
But if he is morally correct, it would affect my feelings about Obama in a negative way.

Your bias does not allow you to evaluate on a moral level, as you demonstrated by your defense of what is now commonly known as a moral lie.
And since neither of us has a copy of the speech we can not yet evaluate it on a technical level.

So why even bother posting?
If you get a link of the speech, then you'd have something to talk about.
You asked what i was looking for. I told you.
And your response was less than helpfull, if not down right disturbing.

GottaHurt · 09-19-08, 04:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frolicking Dinosaurs

Fact Check. Org has weighed in with info

Your link is a FRAUD.

You claim FactCheck.org weighed in with the info, while in fact it's a link to a CNN Blog.

You liberals have no shame and will sink to any level to try and win at all costs.

bhkad · 09-19-08, 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John1234

I've not seen anything from McCain in a very long time that was not a distortion or a lie.
But this sounded pretty convincing.
And after lying and being caught so many times, I really would not expect McCain to lie again this morning.

This morning McCain gave a long speech on MSNBC accusing Obama of being connected to the Fanny Freddie failure.

It would not change my vote. There is far too much wrong with McCain and his visions of a global empire.
But if 100% of the things I heard this morning are true, I would be very disappointed with Obama.
It would change my vote from a vote of inspiration and hope to a vote of only self preservation to prevent global war.

So i am posting here to see if anyone can present solid facts that either support or disprove McCain's claims.

Edit: Since the Speech is just now ending, there is probably no link to it yet.

I just came to the thread and have yet to read anything more than your post. And as I'm sure the connections between either campaign and the two mortgage giants have been mentioned by now I will only say this.

McCain tried in 2006 to introduce reforms to prevent this mortgage mess BEFORE it happened but you-know-who stood in the way.

And now, as we face a potential economic "DISASTER"

FOXNews.com - Bernanke Warns of 'Deep and Extensive Recession' If Feds Don't Take Action - Politics | Republican Party | Democratic Party | Political Spectrum )

we all must face the truth of the matter...

Obama wants to hike taxes during a weak economy.

Quote:

Massive new taxes and the abandonment of global economic freedom sold as "patriotism" is not only an outrage; it's a huge danger to an economy that has enough troubles already.

IBDeditorials.com: Editorials, Political Cartoons, and Polls from Investor's Business Daily -- Obama Dusts Off Hoover Playbook

Anyone who favors this is insane.

09-19-08, 01:29 PM	#31
Frolicking Dinosaurs Advisor Join Date: Aug 2008 Last Seen: 07-08-09 03:46 PM Posts: 501 Thanks: 238 Thanked 258 Times in 147 Posts Lean: Slightly Liberal Gender:	Re: Desired: More info on Obama /Fanny /Freddie accusations by McCain. Fact Check. Org has weighed in with info
	__________________ The US is now out of cash & will see who its real friends are. Be afraid, be very afraid.

09-19-08, 01:44 PM	#35
JMak Professor Join Date: Sep 2008 Last Seen: 02-13-09 03:15 PM Posts: 1,942 Thanks: 41 Thanked 570 Times in 413 Posts Lean: Conservative	Re: Desired: More info on Obama /Fanny /Freddie accusations by McCain. BTW - maybe Southern Democrat would like to start a new thread to discuss his Phil Gramm business and leave this thread to talking about Obama relying on former Fannie and Freddie CEO for advice - whether it's about housing or selecting a VP.

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