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Do we have funeral services for miscarried babies?

John_Gault

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Just a thought, but, most judeo-christian religions don't have funerals for miscarried babies so, does that mean they don't think those babies aren't really people?
 
Just a thought, but, most judeo-christian religions don't have funerals for miscarried babies so, does that mean they don't think those babies aren't really people?
Good point. As any woman who has ever had a miscarriage can tell you, we do grieve the loss of the child that could have been but was lost, but everyone recognizes that the unborn previable fetus does not have the same legal rights as a full-term infant. State laws do not demand that the lost tissue be buried and social customs do not mandate a funeral be held.
 
Good point. As any woman who has ever had a miscarriage can tell you, we do grieve the loss of the child that could have been but was lost, but everyone recognizes that the unborn previable fetus does not have the same legal rights as a full-term infant. State laws do not demand that the lost tissue be buried and social customs do not mandate a funeral be held.

I understand. But I am referring to mainly the religious point of view.
 
Just a thought, but, most judeo-christian religions don't have funerals for miscarried babies so, does that mean they don't think those babies aren't really people?

We mourn persons, not fetuses.

This fact, all by itself, indicates to me that there is something else going on with anti-choice people. And that "something else" has nothing to do with "saving people". I believe it is perhaps a combination of motivations which are not the same mix from anti-choice person to anti-choice person.

For example, some people feel more worthy in the world when they feel that they are morally superior to others, that their moral set causes them to have to take 'courageous' or difficult stances. Anti-choice belief cascades into a whole set of austere attitudes. An inconsistency in their moral feeling or impulse, like the one you've pointed out here, belies those with this type (or another type) of unconscious agenda.
 
Good point. As any woman who has ever had a miscarriage can tell you, we do grieve the loss of the child that could have been but was lost, but everyone recognizes that the unborn previable fetus does not have the same legal rights as a full-term infant. State laws do not demand that the lost tissue be buried and social customs do not mandate a funeral be held.

Absolutely good addition to this discussion. This indicates to me that there is some moral attitude that is warranted toward the fetus. Just not the life distorting one that anti-choice people afford it. Things are not black and white in the world and this is a perfect example.
 
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Often Masses are said for miscarried children. So, yes--Catholics do it.
 
Just a thought, but, most judeo-christian religions don't have funerals for miscarried babies so, does that mean they don't think those babies aren't really people?

I suggest narrowing the scope of your question from all Jews and every conceivable type of Christian (even the pro-choice Christians) to a more specific group.

Also, assuming that holding a funeral is the only way to mourn is also an error. When my wife miscarried we wanted to claim the body, but we didn't have the money for a funeral.

We are mourning Andrew to this day.

I suggest first doing some research on how people in general mourn the loss of children. I believe you will find that this not always includes funerals. Review the literature and then perhaps narrow the scope of your research to your target audience (which appears to be Evangelical Baptists). Also, conducting a survey of a random sample of cemeteries might reveal how many miscarried children are buried there, if any at all.

Comparing the number of Evangelical Baptist miscarriages with the number of Evangelical Baptist unborn children buried in cemeteries surrounding you target population should give you a reasonable idea of how often funerals are used.

But that data, if you bother to collect it at all, will not tell you if the parents mourned. It will only tell you if they had a funeral.
 
Good point. As any woman who has ever had a miscarriage can tell you, we do grieve the loss of the child that could have been but was lost, but everyone recognizes that the unborn previable fetus does not have the same legal rights as a full-term infant. State laws do not demand that the lost tissue be buried and social customs do not mandate a funeral be held.

Check your local laws on that. When my wife miscarried in NY, one of the doctors told us that if the ZEF is "viable" when it miscarries, the parents are issued a "death certificate" and have to claim the "body".

Speaking for all states as though they have identical laws, especially without a link to your source or a citation on your personal legal credentials to speak with authority, is not wise.
 
Not even the 4th trymester "fetuses" that Obama's Left supported killing?

What is "Obama's Left"?

Is there such a thing as a 4th trimester? I was thinking that by definition, trimester is any of 3 equal divisions of a period of time. So, there would only be a 1st, 2nd and 3rd.

In any case, this is the definition of miscarriage I was working off of:
"Miscarriage or spontaneous abortion is the natural or spontaneous end of a pregnancy at a stage where the prenate is incapable of surviving"

I think that anything in (?or later?) than the 3rd trimester would be considered a premature birth or a stillbirth (depending on the status of the baby).
 
....the unborn previable fetus does not have the same legal rights as a full-term infant. State laws do not demand that the lost tissue be buried and social customs do not mandate a funeral be held.
Check your local laws on that. When my wife miscarried in NY, one of the doctors told us that if the ZEF is "viable" when it miscarries, the parents are issued a "death certificate" and have to claim the "body".

Speaking for all states as though they have identical laws, especially without a link to your source or a citation on your personal legal credentials to speak with authority, is not wise.
I am aware that miscarriage of a viable fetus does require burial in many states and that was why I specified "the unborn previable fetus" in the quote to which you responded.

Even before Roe vs Wade, many state laws and mainstream social customs recognized a difference between the legal rights of previable and viable fetuses.

Finally, my condolences to you and your wife in the loss of Andrew. I know exactly the feelings you are describing because I have been there. However, I still do not believe that my feelings on this matter should determine how my neighbor must handle this situation.
 
Funerals are (usually) a service for the living and not the dead.
 
No, this is not the same as having a funeral.

Aaa...yeah it is. The showy stuff is, as someone else described, for the living. The Mass is for the living AND the dead.
 
Aaa...yeah it is. The showy stuff is, as someone else described, for the living. The Mass is for the living AND the dead.

Which is precisely the point being made: The attitudes of the living toward the death. The attitudes of the living toward the death don't require the "showy stuff", as you've just indicated. The reason for the difference is what is being discussed.

However it is apparent to me in my 'research' on this that perhaps at least the parents sometimes do develop sentiments that cause much grief:

"Although a woman physically recovers from a miscarriage quickly, psychological recovery for parents in general can take a long time. People differ a lot in this regard: some are 'over it' after a few months, others take more than a year. Still others may feel relief or other less negative emotions.

For those who do go through a process of grief, it is often as if the baby had been born but died. How short a time the fetus lived in the womb may not matter for the feeling of loss. From the moment pregnancy is discovered, the parents can start to bond with the unborn child. When the child turns out not to be viable, dreams, fantasies and plans for the future are disturbed roughly.

Besides the feeling of loss, a lack of understanding by others is often important. People who have not experienced a miscarriage themselves may find it hard to empathize with what has occurred and how upsetting it may be. This may lead to unrealistic expectations of the parents' recovery. The pregnancy and miscarriage are hardly mentioned anymore in conversation, often too because the subject is too painful. This can make the woman feel particularly isolated.

Interaction with pregnant women and newborn children is often also painful for parents who have experienced miscarriage. Sometimes this makes interaction with friends, acquaintances and family very difficult."

Miscarriage - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


It seems that the experience of grief, at least, has very much to do with imagining plans for the future. Apparently some people start making those plans from the moment they realize they are pregnant and others wait longer. This also shoots a bit of a hole into my theory (or at least complicates it) that the sentiments of the living are a reliable indicator as to the moral obligation they truly feel toward the fetus.
 
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Which is precisely the point being made: The attitudes of the living toward the death. The attitudes of the living toward the death don't require the "showy stuff", as you've just indicated. The reason for the difference is what is being discussed..

There is simply a smaller circle of "acquaintances" when an unborn child dies. Thus, no need for a "production" to be put on to acknowledge the influence that life had on others. A miscarriage is an intensely private family affair--and so too is the acknowledgement of the child's passing.
 
No, this is not the same as having a funeral.

Who are you to judge the subjective feelings of parents who’ve lost a child?

The physical act is not the same, but that's irrelevant. On what data do you conclude that since the parents did not mourn in your proscribed way, that they therefore did not mourn enough? What objective measure are you using? Where is your research literature published?

I would have thought that you would have learned to accept America’s diverse culture and that not everyone thinks or feels the way you would.
 
What is "Obama's Left"?

Is there such a thing as a 4th trimester? I was thinking that by definition, trimester is any of 3 equal divisions of a period of time. So, there would only be a 1st, 2nd and 3rd.

No no, you're trying to make sense. Logic is not applicable in any of the 57 states Obama claims to have visited so far in his campaign for president.

"4th trimester" is satire on my part to make a point about Obama's support of killing born infants from botched late-term abortions.

RedState: In 2002, Barack Obama Supported Infanticide and I've Got the Transcript of His Words
 
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To be fair, if you include miscarriages, you should also include Stillborn babies. Typically there is a service for stillborns.
 
Good point. As any woman who has ever had a miscarriage can tell you, we do grieve the loss of the child that could have been but was lost, but everyone recognizes that the unborn previable fetus does not have the same legal rights as a full-term infant. State laws do not demand that the lost tissue be buried and social customs do not mandate a funeral be held.
Gosh, Dino, I have to call you on the idea that "any woman. . . ". There are many miscarriages that women have and never really even know they were pregnant. That aside, I was dancing a happy dance after my one miscarriage. It was my only unplanned pregnancy, I was not intending on aborting it, but it really wasn't a optimal time for an oops of that magnitude. It was a huge relief when I miscarried. I have no doubt that some other women have been equally "fortunate". I will give you that MOST women grieve.

John1234, I think you bring up a good point, even if it isn't the standard legally, I am surprised that the religious pro-lifers don't honor their miscarried fetus' as persons in their own ceremonies.
 
John1234, I think you bring up a good point, even if it isn't the standard legally, I am surprised that the religious pro-lifers don't honor their miscarried fetus' as persons in their own ceremonies.

Looking for your source: How do you know they don't?
 
I've personally been to a Catholic service for a miscarried fetus.





*edit* By "service" I meant funeral service. It was for a child that would have been/was my cousin.

(I put the slash because I acknowledge both points of view on this.)
 
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Check your local laws on that. When my wife miscarried in NY, one of the doctors told us that if the ZEF is "viable" when it miscarries, the parents are issued a "death certificate" and have to claim the "body".

Speaking for all states as though they have identical laws, especially without a link to your source or a citation on your personal legal credentials to speak with authority, is not wise.
Interesting, the 7th day adventist doc I had when I miscarried was po'd beyond belief because I didn't scoop the fetus out of the toilet and bring it to him, so he could forward it to a lab for experimentations. I've never heard of what you speak of. I suppose it could depend on how far along the pregnancy was before miscarriage.
 
Who are you to judge the subjective feelings of parents who’ve lost a child?

I am not really 'judging' the subjective feelings. I am drawing conclusions about general attitudes based on the sum of individual actions of society in general as I perceive them.

Do you base your opinions about this specific issue on personal feelings, anecdotal evidence about people's actions, theological treatises, or scientific literature?

Myself, right now I am basing my opinion on anecdotal evidence about people's actions. Thus my opinion is extremely likely to adjust in the future. Indeed, before you posted this, I was coming into contact with new information and thinking on the subject. I posted that information, and even pointed out that my own thinking would need adjustment of some kind.

Is that sort of the point of a discussion?

The physical act is not the same, but that's irrelevant. On what data do you conclude that since the parents did not mourn in your proscribed way, that they therefore did not mourn enough? What objective measure are you using? Where is your research literature published?
If one starts from the premise that cultural behavior is significantly based on the inner life of the individuals of the society practicing cultural norms, then one can use ritual practice as 'data' from which to draw some conclusions.

I would have thought that you would have learned to accept America’s diverse culture and that not everyone thinks or feels the way you would.
Fail to see relevance here. Beside that, I do accept that America has a diverse culture. In fact my post recognized that fact, though it states some speculations about a particular group's motivations for their stances based on their differing culture.

If you're referring to the broader implications that stem from my generally very liberal stances, you've mistaken me for the sort of person who makes a reasonably common mistake when observing differing cultures.

While I do believe that a general attitude of openness leads to greater enrichment and superior quality of life, both on a personal and a societal level, I do not make the mistake that all cultural systems are equally desirable.
 
Interesting, the 7th day adventist doc I had when I miscarried was po'd beyond belief because I didn't scoop the fetus out of the toilet and bring it to him, so he could forward it to a lab for experimentations. I've never heard of what you speak of. I suppose it could depend on how far along the pregnancy was before miscarriage.

I've never heard of any doctor wanting to test the tissue of a first-time miscarriage. Ever.

I've certainly known people who have had funerals for 2nd trimester miscarriages. With early miscarriages there often isn't even anything, really, to bury.

I agree with Jerry. What you do with the physical remnants of a person really doesn't mean anything with how you grieve for that person.
 
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