• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!
  • Welcome to our archives. No new posts are allowed here.

Is the collapse of the dollar inevitable?

Onion Eater

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 28, 2008
Messages
753
Reaction score
139
Location
Scottsdale, AZ
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian
In my Critique of Mathematically Perfected Economy, Axiomatic Economics by Victor Aguilar: Critique of Montagne's Mathematically Perfected Economy, I write:

“The basic flaw in the logic of modern socialists (Montagne, Cook, Zarlenga, etc.) is confusion between motivation and capability. ‘He’s privately controlled!’ the socialist sneers at the Federal Reserve chairman, the unspoken assumption being that, were the socialist put in charge, he would immediately open the floodgates of wealth and prosperity for us all. It would be a veritable socialistic paradise, if only the Benevolent One were given the authority to print money! But, the fact is, the Fed is in a box. If a socialist were put in charge, he would be in the same box.”

In my Critique of Austrian Economics, Axiomatic Economics by Victor Aguilar: Critique of Austrian Economics, I write:

“Rothbard discusses an inevitable ‘distortion-reversion process’ but says little about how it actually plays out. Apparently forgetting his master’s regression theorem, he declares ‘the continuance of confidence in the banks is something of a psychological marvel’ (1970, p. 867).

“Garrison (2001, p. 44) redefines the Production Possibilities Frontier, PPF, to be sustainable combinations of investment and consumption, but says nothing about what is so unsustainable about a credit expansion. Since he defines consumption on the PPF (which is real) to be the same as consumption on the Hayekian triangle (which is nominal), the unsustainability cannot have anything to do with a devaluation of the currency.

“So we see that Mises, writing in 1949, was really the last Austrian to make much of an effort to explain or predict interest rate spikes. After that, their discussion of this issue, including Mises’ later writings, increasingly took on the tone of a morality play, with the greedy bankers getting their ‘inevitable’ comeuppance.”

Clearly, the socialists and the Austrians are at opposite ends of the spectrum of views on inevitability. Socialists believe that the Federal Reserve can turn on a dime, veering away from economic collapse towards a socialistic paradise simply by giving the right person the chairmanship. And how would the Benevolent One accomplish this feat? According to the Debt Virus Theory, it is as simple as printing money and spending it directly into the economy, rather than buying Treasury Bills. On the other hand, the Austrians believe that a “distortion-reversion process” is inevitable. Credit expansion is unsustainable and this, apparently, is true no matter how benevolent the chairman of the Fed may be.

Is hyperinflation the inevitable result of inflation? In America we have only had one bout with hyperinflation and, over 200 years later, the phrase “not worth a Continental” is still part of our language. “In conclusion,” I write in my Critique of Mathematically Perfected Economy, “to Montagne, Cook, Zarlenga and anyone else who claims that they can open the floodgates of prosperity by spending paper money directly into the economy, I say: ‘The Debt Virus Theory is not worth a Continental!’” Debt Virus Theorists’ followers are mostly laymen (for obvious reasons) and, when I wrote this, I fully expected any American with a passing interest in economics to be familiar with the expression, “not worth a Continental.”

Indeed, the collapse of the Continental was inevitable because, having spent Continentals directly into the economy (mostly for soldiers’ wages), the Continental Congress had nothing in their portfolio with which they could buy them back. They were, in fact, benevolent men who had no desire to see their newly-won nation racked with hyperinflation, but they could no more recall the paper money that they had printed than Frankenstein could recall his monster.

But surely the Federal Reserve is smarter than the Continental Congress! Until as recently as last year (2007), I would have responded to this question with a begrudging “yes.” As much as I dislike the United States having a central bank (I advocate free banking), I will admit that, by buying only Treasury Bills, the Federal Reserve has given themselves a portfolio with which they can buy back dollars in the event that inflation should threaten to turn into hyperinflation. Unless the Federal Government itself collapses – by losing a war, for instance – there will always be a market for T-Bills. Selling T-Bills for cash and destroying the cash is a painful, recession-inducing process, as evidenced by our experience during Reagan’s first term, but it can be done. Contra Rothbard, hyperinflation is not inevitable under a central bank.

So what has Ben Bernanke done to make me question his intelligence, if not his benevolence? He polluted the Fed’s portfolio with AAA-rated securities, which I have mocked as being “about as marketable as the chocolate-covered cotton balls that Milo Minderbinder was trying to foist on people in Catch 22.” Everybody knows that, in spite of their impressive-sounding AAA rating, these securities are really just packages of sub-prime loans that nobody wants – what I defined in my Devil’s Dictionary of Economics, Axiomatic Economics by Victor Aguilar: The Devil’s Dictionary of Economics, as “worthless crap.” If people wanted them, in the sense of being willing to pay cash for them, then we wouldn’t be having a credit crisis in the first place.

Bernanke’s actions have made the question of hyperinflation a murky one. The Austrian’s depiction of hyperinflation as being the inevitable fate of central banking has always been cartoonishly simplistic, and it remains so. However, economists of all schools must now admit that hyperinflation is at least a possibility. If the dollar appears to be losing its status as the world’s reserve currency, what will the Fed do about it? Sell their AAA-rated securities for cash and destroy the cash? But what if nobody is impressed with the AAA rating and won’t buy their securities at any price? Then the Fed will be in the same position as the Continental Congress: Benevolent men who have no desire to see their beloved nation racked with hyperinflation, but who have no more ability to recall the paper money that they have printed than Frankenstein had to recall his monster.

Of course, not all of the Fed’s portfolio is in AAA-rated securities and not everything with an AAA rating is worthless crap. They still have lots of T-Bills and there is a market for at least some of their AAA-rated securities. This is why the question of hyperinflation has become so murky. The bottom line is that nobody – not even Ben Bernanke – really knows what the Fed’s portfolio is worth these days. For this reason, I would be very leery of any economist, from any school, who speaks confidently about the future of the dollar. Is the collapse of the dollar inevitable, as the Austrians claim? Or are we at the dawn of a socialistic paradise, provided only that we install the Benevolent One in the Federal Reserve’s chair, as the Debt Virus Theorists claim? The answer is certainly somewhere between these extremes, but where exactly I cannot tell you.

Source: Axiomatic Economics by Victor Aguilar: Gold Does Not Have Intrinsic Value

References

Garrison, Roger. 2001. Time and Money: The Macroeconomics of Capital Structure. New York, NY: Routledge

Rothbard, Murray N. [1962] 1970. Man, Economy and State. Los Angeles, CA: Nash Publishing
 
References

Garrison, Roger. 2001. Time and Money: The Macroeconomics of Capital Structure. New York, NY: Routledge

Rothbard, Murray N. [1962] 1970. Man, Economy and State. Los Angeles, CA: Nash Publishing
Extensive references then! Any chance of something from the American Economic Review, Economic Journal or Journal of Economic Literature? Just for the crack
 
Extensive references then! Any chance of something from the American Economic Review, Economic Journal or Journal of Economic Literature? Just for the crack

I'm rebutting the Austrians' claim that the collapse of the dollar is "inevitable." So, of course, I reference their literature. If I did not reference their own literature, they would claim that I was attacking a straw man.
 
You had a reference section without any substantial references. Come on, put some effort in it
 
You had a reference section without any substantial references. Come on, put some effort in it

Garrison's Time and Money and Rothbard's Man, Economy and State are substantial... They are substantial to an Austrian! And it is Austrians to whom this paper is directed. There are a TON of people on this and on other forums who claim that the collapse of the dollar is inevitable. While not all of them formally claim to be Austrians, it is clear (at least to me) that it is the Austrians, particularly those associated with the Mises Institute, who are the driving force behind all the inevitable-collapse talk.

Obviously, you are not an Austrian. Good for you! I'm not either. But Garrison is the modern leader of the Austrians and Rothbard was their previous leader. The two books that I cited are their primary works - their magnum opuses - so it is not accurate to say that these references are insubstantial to the audience whom I am addressing.

Regarding my scholarship, I should point out that the several links on my homepage, Axiomatic Theory of Economics by Victor Aguilar: Home, have little cap-and-mortarboard symbols after them to denote their level of difficulty. This being the internet, I have tried to provide something for everyone, from laymen to professors. Gold Does Not Have Intrinsic Value is one of the laymen-level papers.

My 2004 paper, Critique of Austrian Economics, is intended for upper-division and grad-school economics students. It has over fifty references: Axiomatic Economics by Victor Aguilar: Critique of Austrian Economics

No offense, Scucca, but perhaps you are the one who should put some effort into reading my academic works before commenting on my scholarship.
 
No offense, Scucca, but perhaps you are the one who should put some effort into reading my academic works before commenting on my scholarship.
An undergrad would be failed with a 2 list reference. However, I take no "offense" from your failure to respond to my hopes. You have your needs and that obviously does not encompass genuine academic critique. Each to their own I say! Cheers
 
An undergrad would be failed with a 2 list reference. However, I take no "offense" from your failure to respond to my hopes. You have your needs and that obviously does not encompass genuine academic critique. Each to their own I say! Cheers

I didn't realize this was http://www.writeathoroughlyreferencedtermpaper.com

Why don't you try addressing the substance of his argument rather than merely attacking his merely adequate referencing?
 
Why don't you try addressing the substance of his argument rather than merely attacking his merely adequate referencing?
He's made a big deal of his reference section (in the fake attempt to suggest academic level thought has gone into it).

I'm happy for folk to rant. Its our basic right. We just shouldn't hide from that reality.
 
He's made a big deal of his reference section (in the fake attempt to suggest academic level thought has gone into it).

I'm happy for folk to rant. Its our basic right. We just shouldn't hide from that reality.

Again, rather than touting your familiarity with pseudo-intellectual thought, why don't you add something to the discussion?
 
Again, rather than touting your familiarity with pseudo-intellectual thought, why don't you add something to the discussion?
Its actually through him coming clean over the references that a discussion would be enabled. Rant always has its place, but I'm always up for genuine economic comment. That must refer to the material available, given we lowly swine are not capable of original theoretical thought
 
He's made a big deal of his reference section (in the fake attempt to suggest academic level thought has gone into it).

Actually, Scucca, I think you are the one making a big deal of my reference section.

As I said before, the cap-and-mortarboard symbols on the homepage of my website denote the level of difficulty of the papers posted there. This is an excerpt from a one-cap paper, meaning that it is intended for a layman-level audience. The complete paper had ten - Count 'em yourself! - references but, for the sake of brevity, I posted only the two mentioned in the excerpt.

My mistake! Last time I checked, Debate Politics was not an academic journal where one is expected to even have a reference section. But, seeing that you are a big boy who can handle two-cap, academic-level papers, I will here post the summary of my Critique of Hayek, with its complete reference section. You will be proud to see that I do, in fact, read the Journal of Economic Literature - and over fifty other academic-level books and journals.

You can read the complete paper at Axiomatic Economics by Victor Aguilar: Critique of Austrian Economics and decide for yourself if academic-level thought went into it.

Summary of the Critique of Hayek

We have found seven serious problems with Hayekian economics:

1) As discussed in Section II, Hayek was unclear whether his structure of production represents a yearly flow of goods or a distribution of wealth. Mises and Rothbard, like Hayek, seem to mean one and also the other. Skousen is at least consistent but, unfortunately, he is consistently wrong. He definitely means the amount of goods flowing by every year. This author’s work (1999) is about stock, not supply.

2) As discussed in Section III, Hayek’s triangle is printed sideways and backwards. The former problem can be corrected by rotating the graph but the latter problem is more fundamental. Hayek is speaking from the perspective of the owner of the final product looking back on his costs of production. He is speaking from Marx’s perspective. The perspective that we want is from right now, at time zero, looking forward into the future.

3) As discussed in Section IV, there must be some temporal measure or the Hayekian’s incessant references to “lengthening the period of production” would not mean anything at all. Their theory of business cycles depends on credit expansions lengthening the period of production and on the inevitable contraction shortening it. It is impossible to talk about something being lengthened or shortened unless one knows how to measure it.

4) As discussed in Section V, Hayekian theory depends entirely too much on the specificity of capital goods. In reality, many companies make products or provide services which are used in all of Hayek’s five stages – and they experience cyclical behavior too. Rothbard was wrong when he said “To the extent that the new money is loaned to consumers rather than businesses, the cycle effects do not occur” (1970, p. 940 footnote).

5) As discussed in Section VI, Garrison’s conceptions of the natural rate of interest is faulty. The Hayekians are naïve to cling to this mythical concept. There is no such thing as a natural rate of interest. In any case, credit limits are more important than interest rates. The necessity of a bust following boom times is adequately explained by the transfer of capital from smaller companies to larger ones.

6) In Garrison’s own words: “the [Hayekian] theory of the business cycle is a theory of the unsustainable boom. It is not a theory of depression per se. In particular, it does not account for the severity and possible recalcitrance of the depression that may follow on the heels of the bust” (2001, p. 120). In 1930, Hayek could explain how the depression started. In 1936, he could not explain why it still persisted.

7) Austrian economists seem naïve because their belief in a natural interest rate implies an ethical judgment on what is natural or unnatural, their discussion of the inevitable collapse of a credit expansion is typically presented as a sort of morality play and because they advocate an impractical 100% reserve requirement based solely on ethical considerations.

Seven strikes and you are out! Hayek’s horse fell dead underneath him in 1936. Seventy years later, his followers are still beating that horse saying “Get up! Get up! We have to finish the race!”

The DWCS, presented in Section IV, is a good start towards reforming Hayekian economics. While far from a complete solution to their problems, it at least puts a horse under them again. For a complete solution, they should consult this author’s work (Aguilar 1999). But, to understand where I am coming from, we need to first consider the legacy of that other great defender of the free market, Ludwig von Mises.

REFERENCES

Aguilar, Victor. 1999. Axiomatic Theory of Economics. Hauppauge, NY: Nova Science Publishers, Inc.

Berenson, Alex. The Number: How the Drive For Quarterly Earnings Corrupted Wall Street and Corporate America. New York, NY: Random House

Block, Hoppe and Salerno. 1998. Editorial. Quarterly Journal of Austrian Economics. 1 (1): iii-iv

Block, Walter. 1999. “Austrian Theorizing: Recalling the Foundations.” Quarterly Journal of Austrian Economics. 2 (4): 21-39

——. 2001. “Yes, We Have No Chaff: A Reply to Wagner’s ‘Austrian Cycle Theory: Saving the Wheat While Discarding the Chaff.’” Quarterly Journal of Austrian Economics. 4 (1): 63-73

Böhm-Bawerk, Eugen von. [1921] 1959. Capital and Interest. 3 vols. George D. Huncke and Hans F. Sennholz, trans. South Holland, IL: Libertarian Press

——. [1898] 1984. Karl Marx and the Close of His System. New York, NY: Augustus M. Kelley

Brenner, Robert. 2002. The Boom and the Bubble. New York, NY: Verso

Callahan & Garrison. 2003. “Does Austrian Business Cycle Theory Help Explain the Dot-Com Boom and Bust?” Quarterly Journal of Austrian Economics. 6 (2): 67-98

Caplan, Bryan. 1999. “The Austrian Search for Realistic Foundations.” Southern Economic Journal. 65 (4): 823-838

Cochran, Call & Glahe. 2003. “Austrian Business Cycle Theory: Variations on a Theme.” Quarterly Journal of Austrian Economics. 6 (1): 67-73

Debreu, Gerard. 1959. Theory of Value: An Axiomatic Analysis of Economic Equilibrium. New Yoek, NY: John Wiley & Sons, Inc.

Friedman, Milton. 1953. “The Methodology of Positive Economics.” in Essays in Positive Economics. Chicago, IL: University of Chicago Press.

——. [1962] 1982. Capitalism and Freedom. Chcago, IL: University of Chcago Press

Garrison, Roger. 1978. “Austrian Macroeconomics: A Diagrammatical Exposition.” in New Directions in Austrian Economics, edited by Louis Spadero. Kansas City, KS: Sheed, Andrews and McMeel

——. 1985. “A Subjectivist Theory of a Capital-using Economy” in The Economics of Time and Ignorance. New York, NY: Basil Blackwell Ltd.

——. 1996. “The Austrian Theory in Perspective” in The Austrian Theory of the Trade Cycle, compiled by Richard Ebeling. Auburn, AL: Ludwig von Mises Institute

——. 2001. Time and Money: The Macroeconomics of Capital Structure. New York, NY: Routledge

Hayek, Friedrich A. November 1937. “Investment that Raises the Demand for Capital.” Review of Economic Statistics. 19: 174-177

——. [1935] 1967. Prices and Production. New York, NY: Augustus M. Kelly, Publishers

——. [1941] 1975. The Pure Theory of Capital. Chicago, IL: University of Chicago Press

Hoppe, Hans-Hermann. 1995. Economic Science and the Austrian Method. Auburn, AL: Ludwig von Mises Institute

Keen, Steve. 2001. Debunking Economics. Annandale, NSW Australia: Pluto Press

Keynes, John M. [1936] 1953. The General Theory of Employment, Interest and Money. New York, NY: Harcourt Brace Jovanovich, Publishers

Kirzner, Isreal M. December 1991. “Review of Structure of Production by Mark Skousen” Journal of Economic Literature. XXIX: 1761-1762

Kolmogorov, A. N. [1933] 1956. Foundations of the Theory of Probability. Nathan Morrison trans. New York, NY: Chelsea Publishing Company

Lachmann, Ludwig M. 1986. “Austrian Economics Under Fire: The Hayek-Sraffa Duel in Retrospect.” in Austrian Economics, edited by Wolfgang Grassl and Barry Smith. London, England: Croom Helm

Machiavelli, Niccolò. [1513] 1999. The Prince. George Bull trans. New York, NY: Penguin Books

Menger, Carl. [1871] 1981. Principles of Economics. Dingwall and Hoselitz trans. New York, NY: New York University Press

Mises, Ludwig von. [1949] 1966. Human Action: A Treatise on Economics. Chicago, IL: Contemporary Books, Inc.

——. [1912] 1971. The Theory of Money and Credit. H. E. Batson trans. Irvington-on-Hudson, NY: The Foundation of Economic Education, Inc.

Mises, Richard von. [1928] 1981. Probability, Statistics and Truth. Hilda Geiringer trans. New York, NY: Dover Publications, Inc.

Moise, Edwin E. 1990. Elementary Geometry from an Advanced Standpoint. New York, NY: Addison-Wesley Publishing Company

Mulligan, Robert F. 2002. “A Hayekian Analysis of the Term Structure of Production.” Quarterly Journal of Austrian Economics. 5 (2): 17-33

O’Driscoll & Rizzo. 1985. The Economics of Time and Ignorance. New York, NY: Basil Blackwell Ltd.

Rothbard, Murray N. [1962] 1970. Man, Economy and State. Los Angeles, CA: Nash Publishing

Salerno, Joseph T. 2002. “The Rebirth of Austrian Economics – In Light of Austrian Economics.” Quarterly Journal of Austrian Economics. 5 (4): 111-128

Sechrest, Larry J. 2001. “Capital, Credit, and the Medium Run” Quarterly Journal of Austrian Economics. 4 (3): 63-77

Sennholz, Hans F. 1979. Age of Inflation. Belmont, MA: Western Islands

Skousen, Mark. 1977. Economics of a Pure Gold Standard. Irvington-on-Hudson, MA: The Foundation for Economic Education, Inc.

——. 1990. Structure of Production. New York. NY: New York University Press

——. 1991. Economics On Trial. New York, NY: Irwin Professional Publishing

——. 2001. The Making of Modern Economics. Armonk, NY: M. E. Sharpe

Smith, Adam. [1776] 1976. An Inquiry into the Nature and Causes of the Wealth of Nations. Chicago, IL: The University of Chicago Press

Sraffa, Piero. 1960. Production of Commodities by Means of Commodities. London, England: Cambridge University Press

Stiglitz and Greenwald. 2003. Towards a New Paradigm in Monetary Economics. Cambridge, England: Cambridge University Press

Stiglitz, Joseph. 2003a. The Roaring Nineties. New York, NY: W. W. Norton and Co.

——. 2003b. “Information and the Change in the Paradigm in Economics.” The American Economist. 47 (2): 6-26

Strigl, Richard von. [1934] 2000. Capital and Production. Dr. & Mrs. Hoppe trans. Auburn, AL: Ludwig von Mises Institute

Thornton, Mark. 2001. Editorial. Quarterly Journal of Austrian Economics. 4 (3): 3-4

Timberlake, Richard. 1999. "Ludwig von Mises and Price Indexes." Cato Journal. 19 (2): 273-277

Tullock, Gordon. 1999. “Mises and the Dialog of Science.” Cato Journal. 19 (2): 229-24
 
Its actually through him coming clean over the references that a discussion would be enabled. Rant always has its place, but I'm always up for genuine economic comment. That must refer to the material available, given we lowly swine are not capable of original theoretical thought

I eagerly await your response.
 
Is hyperinflation the inevitable result of inflation? In America we have only had one bout with hyperinflation and, over 200 years later, the phrase “not worth a Continental” is still part of our language. “In conclusion,” I write in my Critique of Mathematically Perfected Economy, “to Montagne, Cook, Zarlenga and anyone else who claims that they can open the floodgates of prosperity by spending paper money directly into the economy, I say: ‘The Debt Virus Theory is not worth a Continental!’” Debt Virus Theorists’ followers are mostly laymen (for obvious reasons) and, when I wrote this, I fully expected any American with a passing interest in economics to be familiar with the expression, “not worth a Continental.”

Indeed, the collapse of the Continental was inevitable because, having spent Continentals directly into the economy (mostly for soldiers’ wages), the Continental Congress had nothing in their portfolio with which they could buy them back. They were, in fact, benevolent men who had no desire to see their newly-won nation racked with hyperinflation, but they could no more recall the paper money that they had printed than Frankenstein could recall his monster.

But surely the Federal Reserve is smarter than the Continental Congress! Until as recently as last year (2007), I would have responded to this question with a begrudging “yes.” As much as I dislike the United States having a central bank (I advocate free banking), I will admit that, by buying only Treasury Bills, the Federal Reserve has given themselves a portfolio with which they can buy back dollars in the event that inflation should threaten to turn into hyperinflation. Unless the Federal Government itself collapses – by losing a war, for instance – there will always be a market for T-Bills. Selling T-Bills for cash and destroying the cash is a painful, recession-inducing process, as evidenced by our experience during Reagan’s first term, but it can be done. Contra Rothbard, hyperinflation is not inevitable under a central bank.

So what has Ben Bernanke done to make me question his intelligence, if not his benevolence? He polluted the Fed’s portfolio with AAA-rated securities, which I have mocked as being “about as marketable as the chocolate-covered cotton balls that Milo Minderbinder was trying to foist on people in Catch 22.” Everybody knows that, in spite of their impressive-sounding AAA rating, these securities are really just packages of sub-prime loans that nobody wants – what I defined in my Devil’s Dictionary of Economics, Axiomatic Economics by Victor Aguilar: The Devil’s Dictionary of Economics, as “worthless crap.” If people wanted them, in the sense of being willing to pay cash for them, then we wouldn’t be having a credit crisis in the first place.

Bernanke’s actions have made the question of hyperinflation a murky one. The Austrian’s depiction of hyperinflation as being the inevitable fate of central banking has always been cartoonishly simplistic, and it remains so. However, economists of all schools must now admit that hyperinflation is at least a possibility. If the dollar appears to be losing its status as the world’s reserve currency, what will the Fed do about it? Sell their AAA-rated securities for cash and destroy the cash? But what if nobody is impressed with the AAA rating and won’t buy their securities at any price? Then the Fed will be in the same position as the Continental Congress: Benevolent men who have no desire to see their beloved nation racked with hyperinflation, but who have no more ability to recall the paper money that they have printed than Frankenstein had to recall his monster.

Of course, not all of the Fed’s portfolio is in AAA-rated securities and not everything with an AAA rating is worthless crap. They still have lots of T-Bills and there is a market for at least some of their AAA-rated securities. This is why the question of hyperinflation has become so murky. The bottom line is that nobody – not even Ben Bernanke – really knows what the Fed’s portfolio is worth these days. For this reason, I would be very leery of any economist, from any school, who speaks confidently about the future of the dollar. Is the collapse of the dollar inevitable, as the Austrians claim? Or are we at the dawn of a socialistic paradise, provided only that we install the Benevolent One in the Federal Reserve’s chair, as the Debt Virus Theorists claim? The answer is certainly somewhere between these extremes, but where exactly I cannot tell you.

Source: Axiomatic Economics by Victor Aguilar: Gold Does Not Have Intrinsic Value

References

Garrison, Roger. 2001. Time and Money: The Macroeconomics of Capital Structure. New York, NY: Routledge

Rothbard, Murray N. [1962] 1970. Man, Economy and State. Los Angeles, CA: Nash Publishing


Interesting post and well thought out.

I would have liked to see a little more argument on why the collapse of the dollar is not inevitable. The supply and demand principle so vital to economics is also lacking in your analysis. The 15 year T Bills are one of the best guages to judge confidence in the dollar and the FED, and this rate is set by supply and demand factors. It's currently about 4 %. That rate will drop if the T Bills look less attractive (ie. the dollar could devalue, for example). This is related to the Consumer Price Index (inflation). If the dollar is inflating, these T Bills become less desirable.

The FED can manage the inflation rate by monetary policy in addition to buying back T Bills. They can simply raise the Federal Funds Rate. This is of course what Voelker did to handle inflation in the late 70's.

The FED in my opinion was forced to help Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. Had they not done so, their collapse would cripple an already damaged economy, and would make it much more difficult for Americans to pursue the American Dream, owning their own home as part and parcel of that.

But that is not to say hyper-inflation is to be neglected. Zimbabwe offers an example for an economy that got injected with too much paper money chasing too few goods. It costs 600,000 dollars to buy a loaf of bread there.

Therefore, it is important all Americans realize the importance of balancing the budget and not running a deficit. A president who lacks socialistic idolations is our best bet for a growing economy.
 
My mistake! Last time I checked, Debate Politics was not an academic journal where one is expected to even have a reference section.
Its the quality of the references that you chose that showed you up. The Austrian school is a marginal one, but I know that their published work continues to be vibrant. By choosing the references that you have, you're coming across as someone that is avoiding that literature in order to exaggerate the relevance of your opinion. It is not a tactic that I personally enjoy. “The folk on here don't know what they're talking about” is certainly no defence. Indeed, in such an environment, more references are required in order to enable the reader to appreciate how you have embedded your opinion into the available literature.

But, seeing that you are a big boy who can handle two-cap, academic-level papers, I will here post the summary of my Critique of Hayek, with its complete reference section. You will be proud to see that I do, in fact, read the Journal of Economic Literature - and over fifty other academic-level books and journals.
My worry will be about how you used them. You haven't used the list on here to justify your post on here. I'm assuming its from an unpublished paper. Have you got it through the peer review process anywhere?

What we get instead is a cartoon attack on the 'cartoonish' Austrian approach where there is insufficient attention to the continued output by Austrian economist.

We have found seven serious problems with Hayekian economics
Despite my disagreement with the Austrian approach, you alienate me straight away with this comment. We can go through any school and list perceived “serious problems”. Any critique must be balanced and refer to the school's influence. Hayekian economics, for example, is a crucial part of managerial economics. It is only through first considering the nature of distributed knowledge that we can understand the limitations of neoclassical economics. Its Hayek that allows us to 'clear the decks' with regards theory of the firm and then fully appreciate the contribution of Coase and transaction cost economics. The attempt to simply rubbish marginal schools of thought will not help the post-autistic approach to economics where all schools of thought are considered (and we return to a more general political economic approach to the topic).

REFERENCES
You've provided no attempt to apply these references to this thread, except of course to feed your “please come to my site!” plea. Lets try something different! You quote Garrison who writes “the Austrian theory of the business cycle is a theory of the unsustainable boom”. Consider, something recent in the QJAE, such as Cwik (2008, Austrian Business Cycle Theory: A Corporate Finance Point of View, Quarterly Journal of Austrian Economics, Vol 11 Issue 1, pp 60-68). Here's the paper's abstract:

The Austrian business cycle theory (ABCT) has been criticized for not being a true theory of the business cycle. The main emphasis of the ABCT has been on the theory of the upper-turning point—the artificial expansion of credit, the manipulation of interest rates, the malinvestments committed by entrepreneurs and then the credit crunch and/or real resource crunch. The paper provides an illustration (from a corporate finance point of view) of how a company, by following market signals, will launch a project that is a malinvestment. The paper then demonstrates how a company can take a failing component from another business and turn it into a viable operation via the liquidation process. This paper then demonstrates how the Austrian theory can make superior recommendations for policies (through the usage of the liquidation process) to help stimulate economic recovery.

Could you critique that paper? I usually find it a more valuable exercise than just picking and choosing convenient sentences from specific text
 
I would have liked to see a little more argument on why the collapse of the dollar is not inevitable. The supply and demand principle so vital to economics is also lacking in your analysis. The 15 year T Bills are one of the best guages to judge confidence in the dollar and the FED, and this rate is set by supply and demand factors. It's currently about 4 %. That rate will drop if the T Bills look less attractive (ie. the dollar could devalue, for example). This is related to the Consumer Price Index (inflation). If the dollar is inflating, these T Bills become less desirable.

In my Critique of Austrian Economics, Axiomatic Economics by Victor Aguilar: Critique of Austrian Economics, I write:

“Credit limits are more important than interest rates and there are many people who cannot get credit at all. Interest rates only affect how much money is being transferred. They do not affect who gets it…

“Recently, Stiglitz and Greenwald have raised the same issue. ‘That some loans are not repaid is central… Thus, a central function of banks is to determine who is likely to default, and in doing so, banks determine the supply of loans.’ (2003, p. 3). This idea, that bank loans redistribute wealth from one class of people to another, is a fundamental departure from the classical view that banks merely divide the world into those who are willing to borrow at x% but not at x.1%, without regard to who those people are, their class or their importance to the government.”

Recent events have confirmed my belief that credit limits are more important than interest rates:

Alan Zibel writes, “Lenders [who must satisfy Fannie and Freddie] are demanding bank statements, big cash reserves and second appraisals before they approve a loan to refinance a home. Mortgage rates are hovering around 6.6%, about the same level as a year ago.”

Clearly, if mortgage rates are the same as a year ago but the housing market is so much different (and worse) than a year ago, then mortgage rates are not the best measure of the market. Credit limits are.

Martin Feldstein concurs, “The dysfunctional state of the credit market means that many individuals and businesses are unable to get credit. Lowering interest rates will not stimulate demand for those who cannot get credit.”

At the macro level, most economists agree that the Federal Reserve loaning money to investment banks and holding loan auctions to avoid shaming the recipients is far more important than the fact that they lowered the discount rate. Also, the repeal of the Glass-Steagall act in 1999 is widely seen as a precursor to the current credit crisis, yet it had no direct impact on interest rates.

You write that the Fed was forced to help Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. Maybe, maybe not; but let’s consider why you think the issue is important in the first place. It has no direct impact on interest rates. It just makes a source of loans, the Fed itself, available to Fannie and Freddie that they were previously denied access to. In other words, it changed the credit limits that Fannie and Freddie face, but not the rates that they must pay.

So, to answer your question, I am aware of yield-curve analysis, I just don’t think that it is important. As I said in 2004, “Credit limits are more important than interest rates and there are many people who cannot get credit at all. Interest rates only affect how much money is being transferred. They do not affect who gets it.”

That rate will drop if the T Bills look less attractive (ie. the dollar could devalue, for example). This is related to the Consumer Price Index (inflation). If the dollar is inflating, these T Bills become less desirable.

Two additional points:

First, I believe price indexes are meaningless statistics. They are adding numbers together that have different units. An example of this is the “welcome” sign of a town, which gives the year it was founded, the elevation, the population and then (Isn’t this the epitome of cutting-edge humor?) the total of those three numbers. Similarly, the Consumer Price Index adds up dollars per pound of beef, dollars per gallon of gasoline, dollars per haircut, etc., and then divides by the number of items observed and reports the result.

Section XI of my Critique of Austrian Economics is titled, “The Meaninglessness of Price Indexes,” Axiomatic Economics by Victor Aguilar: Critique of Austrian Economics. People are harmed when the prices of the things they sell go down while the prices of the things they buy go up. Averaging all of those prices together is entirely pointless.

Second, I think you have it backwards. The rate and the price of T-Bills move in opposite directions. If 15-year T-Bills become less desirable because of an anticipated devaluation of the currency, their price will go down while their rate goes up.

REFERENCES

Stiglitz and Greenwald. 2003. Towards a New Paradigm in Monetary Economics. Cambridge, England: Cambridge University Press

Note: Zibel and Feldstein are newspaper columnists and I don't have the sources for their quotes, though I can probably find them.
 
Its the quality of the references that you chose that showed you up.

No Austrian would question the quality of Rothbard’s Man, Economy and State or of Garrison’s Time and Money. Those two books are to Austrians as the Old and the New Testament are to Christians.

You are just displaying the bias that mainstream economists have for journal articles over books. It wasn’t always like that. Before WWII, it was standard practice for famous economists to be known for a book, not for a string of influential articles. For example, Smith, Ricardo, Menger, Marshall, Mises and Keynes all have a famous book that is still in print, though only economic historians have read any of their journal articles. For instance, everybody has read Keynes’ General Theory, but who has read his article attacking Hayek in their famous debate? (Okay, trick question, he dispatched Sraffa to write it for him.)

After the war, only Austrian economists aspired to write a magnum opus. Most mainstream economists have never written a book and the few that did wrote Freakonomic-type books directed at laymen. Debreu’s Theory of Value is the only post-war mainstream book that could be called a magnum opus. The most famous post-war economist is Paul Krugman and he never wrote a book that was not just a collection of articles.

People like you tend to assume that all modern economics books are of the Freakonomic variety, which explains why you are so disdainful of Rothbard’s and Garrison’s books. It also explains why you are disdainful of me for having introduced Axiomatic Economics in book form rather than in a series of journal articles.

The Austrian school is a marginal one, but I know that their published work continues to be vibrant.

You are mocking them. You know as well as I do that they have not published a journal article since WWII. The only “journal” that will publish their work is the QJAE, which is not actually a journal in the sense of being stocked by university libraries. They may have indirectly influenced mainstream topics like managerial economics, but the kernel of their theory, Austrian Business Cycle Theory (ABCT) has never seen the light of day in a post-war academic journal. Certainly, the economist you named, Coase, does not call himself “Austrian.”

But the Austrians’ exclusion from academic journals does not imply that they are without influence. If I didn’t think that they were influential, I would not have taken the time to write a fifty page academic-level paper, Critique of Austrian Economics, Axiomatic Economics by Victor Aguilar: Critique of Austrian Economics, about them. I wrote this in 2004 and, since then, their influence has increased dramatically. Because of the recession, there are many laymen being drawn to economics and the Austrians are riling them up with scare talk about the inevitable collapse of the dollar. This is why I wrote my short, laymen-level paper, Gold Does Not Have Intrinsic Value, Axiomatic Economics by Victor Aguilar: Gold Does Not Have Intrinsic Value, last month.

My 2004 Critique is entirely about the kernel of their theory; it was hard enough to stuff all that I had to say about ABCT into fifty pages, much less include peripheral topics like managerial economics. Fifty pages is about twice as long as a typical journal article, which is why I divided it into two parts, a critique of Hayek and a critique of Mises. My paper denouncing intrinsic value (of which the OP is an excerpt) is a reply to all the gold bugs at the Daily Paul forum, where I am a regular discussant. (FYI: I’m Shaka there, not Onion Eater.)

“The folk on here don't know what they're talking about”

I never said that. You are putting words in my mouth in an effort to alienate me from Debate Politics discussants.

You haven't used the list on here to justify your post on here.

I posted that list to mock you for your obsession with my references. My Critique is fifty pages long; my post is just a one-page excerpt from it. So of course the excerpt does not mention all of the books and articles cited.

I'm assuming its from an unpublished paper. Have you got it through the peer review process anywhere?

I sent my Critique to the QJAE in 2004. Their referee comments are re-printed in the appendix, along with my reply. Other journals will not consider my Critique because it was written for the QJAE, not for them. In 2007, Robert Murphy of the Mises Institute wrote A Reply to Aguilar, Axiomatic Economics by Victor Aguilar: A Reply to Aguilar and I responded with A Rejoinder to Mr. Murphy, Axiomatic Economics by Victor Aguilar: A Rejoiner to Mr. Murphy

We can go through any school and list perceived “serious problems”.

You can? Then start with mine: Axiomatic Economics.

The attempt to simply rubbish marginal schools of thought will not help the post-autistic approach to economics where all schools of thought are considered.

All schools of thought are considered??? Like hell they are. “Post-Autistic” is synonymous with “Anti-Axiomatic.” They hate me. Of course, lots of people hate me – that’s just the kind of guy I am – but post-autistic economists are unique in hating me without having ever read a word I’ve written. They just saw “axiomatic” in the title of my book and it was hate, hate, hate.

Anyway, I did not “simply rubbish” the Austrians. I wrote a fifty-page academic-level paper about them. This is in sharp contrast to Paul Krugman’s treatment of the Austrians, which I discuss at Axiomatic Economics by Victor Aguilar: Austrian, Chicago and Keynesian Rebuttals to Aguilar (halfway down, under the title “The Keynesian Rebuttal”). He was trying to “simply rubbish” the Austrians when he wrote the very flippant and insulting two-page paper that I quote.


Consider, something recent in the QJAE, such as Cwik… Could you critique that paper?

Suggesting the topic of my next paper is rather bold, considering that you have not yet read my current paper. Read Critique of Austrian Economics, Axiomatic Economics by Victor Aguilar: Critique of Austrian Economics. Then, if you still think that Cwik’s arguments go unanswered, tell me why and I may write a paper specifically about him.

It is not unheard of for me to respond to such requests. For instance, a discussant at the Daily Paul forum observed Mike Montagne promoting his Mathematically Perfected Economy there and asked me to write a rebuttal to it, which I did, Axiomatic Economics by Victor Aguilar: Critique of Montagne's Mathematically Perfected Economy

I usually find it a more valuable exercise than just picking and choosing convenient sentences from specific text.

The Austrians may hate me with a passion, but they have never accused me of cherry-picking quotes from their literature to make them look bad. Perhaps you would be a better judge of this supposed tendency of mine after you have actually read my paper.
 
You are just displaying the bias that mainstream economists have for journal articles over books.
Journal article analysis dominates both orthodox and heterodox schools. You may not like it, given you cannot get published in those journals. Such a reaction may be understandable, but it is not at all interesting.

It wasn’t always like that. Before WWII, it was standard practice for famous economists to be known for a book, not for a string of influential articles.
Success in the profession is reliant on journal articles. There may be some exaggeration of the relative worth of specific journals. There are also likely to be problems, such as publication bias and temporary “dams” stopping progress (as the referee attempts to protect their own research). However, it leads to quality control and also, via repeated submissions, improvements in analysis. Books then are, quite rightly, much more likely to be collections of journal articles.

It also explains why you are disdainful of me for having introduced Axiomatic Economics in book form rather than in a series of journal articles.
That you have secured no journal publications gives you away! The missus is an academic and has published in both orthodox and heterodox sources. There's no trick to it!

You are mocking them. You know as well as I do that they have not published a journal article since WWII. The only “journal” that will publish their work is the QJAE, which is not actually a journal in the sense of being stocked by university libraries.
Nonsense. Austrian economists are able to publish in numerous journals. That it is a marginal school of thought does not stop them (although, to be fair, academics with less ability are unfortunately often more likely to be attracted to marginal schools)

They may have indirectly influenced mainstream topics like managerial economics, but the kernel of their theory, Austrian Business Cycle Theory (ABCT) has never seen the light of day in a post-war academic journal. Certainly, the economist you named, Coase, does not call himself “Austrian.”
That is a deliberate misrepresentation. Hayekian economics, given the repercussions of the socialist calculation debate, is dominated by its analysis into knowledge. It has also been highly successful in impacting on the analysis into industrial and institutional economics. I'm a tad busy tonight so I haven't got time to search for a good review. However, try something like Perraton and Tarrant (2007, What does tacit knowledge actually explain?, Journal of Economic Methodology, Vol 14, pp 353-370) for further detail about Hayek's influence.

My 2004 Critique is entirely about the kernel of their theory; it was hard enough to stuff all that I had to say about ABCT into fifty pages, much less include peripheral topics like managerial economics.
Given the impact on the theory of the firm, your attempt to suggest the Hayekian knowledge stuff is peripheral really will not wash. Your attempt to skew the nature of Austrian analysis probably reflects your own theoretical limitations. Again, that is understandable. We all run the risk of moving the goal posts to avoid inconvenient truths.

The rest of your post seemed to be more “read my stuff” pleas. Get it published in a peer reviewed journal and I'd consider it. However, your failure to respond with anything academic-level to the Cwik paper was noted!
 

Interesting post, but I'm not sure of your conclusion here. Is your critique of the current Fed chairman, the Fed system itself, or something else?

Or is your point just to address whether the collapse of the dollar is inevitable? If I understand, your point is that by buying crappy private securities, the Fed is limiting its ability to contrain the money supply because it won't be able to sell them. That seems like a notable point. What percentage of the Fed's portfolio is with these kinds of securities? Outside of selling securities, cannot the Fed constrain the money supply by increasing its fed funds rate? Or is that an ineffective tool in control of money supply?
 
The missus is an academic and has published in both orthodox and heterodox sources. There's no trick to it!

Devil: I can get you and your missus published in academic journals! All you have to do is pump up socialist dogma while baffling your critics with a barrage of scholarly references… Oh, and also sign your souls over to me.

Scucca: Hmm…. I don’t get it. What’s the catch?
 
I'm not sure of your conclusion here.

I advocate free banking, which I discuss at length in my book. In Gold Does Not Have Intrinsic Value, Axiomatic Economics by Victor Aguilar: Gold Does Not Have Intrinsic Value, I briefly discuss a possible scenario for how free banking might come about through the actions of independent actors, rather than though grandiose pronouncements from self-important economists.

But the current post has more modest goals: I just address whether the collapse of the dollar is inevitable. My conclusion is that it is not inevitable, but that the recent actions of the Fed have made it a possibility. This post is the appendix to Gold Does Not Have Intrinsic Value.


What percentage of the Fed's portfolio is with these kinds of securities?

I write, “Of course, not all of the Fed’s portfolio is in AAA-rated securities and not everything with an AAA rating is worthless crap. They still have lots of T-Bills and there is a market for at least some of their AAA-rated securities. This is why the question of hyperinflation has become so murky.”

To answer your question, I don’t know - it’s murky.

Outside of selling securities, cannot the Fed constrain the money supply by increasing its fed funds rate? Or is that an ineffective tool in control of money supply?


They increase the Federal Funds Rate by selling T-Bills and destroying the cash. They decrease it by creating cash out of thin air and using it to buy T-Bills. Buying and selling assets, whether T-Bills or securities, is an effective means of controlling the money supply – in fact, it is their only means. It is called “open market operations.”

A lot of people think that the Fed sets the Federal Funds Rate by decree. The fact that the name has the word “Federal” in it tends to support this view. In fact, the Federal Funds Rate is set in the free market. It is the rate that banks loan money to each other overnight for the purpose of having enough cash on hand to meet reserve requirements. Those are private-party deals – they set their own terms without any decrees from the government.

But the Fed’s ability to create money out of thin air to buy short-term T-Bills has a powerful influence on short-term interest rates. So powerful, in fact, that the Fed can perform open market operations with such precision that they can set the Federal Funds Rate within a quarter of a percent. Banks loaning money to each other is a free market in the sense that nobody is told what to do but, at the same time, they can’t ignore the juggernaut that is the Fed.

Note: The Discount Rate is a different thing. It is the rate that the Fed charges when they loan money to banks that are temporarily unable to meet their reserve requirements. Since it is the Fed themselves who are loaning the money, they do set the Discount Rate by decree.

In the past, the Discount Rate was an ineffective tool because it was considered shameful for banks to ask the Fed for a loan, so they preferred to borrow from other banks if they could. But, as I discuss in my reply to MC.no.spin above, the Fed has recently made it less shameful by allowing banks to borrow from them anonymously. This is one reason why I think that credit limits are more important that interest rates.
 
I advocate free banking, which I discuss at length in my book. In Gold Does Not Have Intrinsic Value, Axiomatic Economics by Victor Aguilar: Gold Does Not Have Intrinsic Value, I briefly discuss a possible scenario for how free banking might come about through the actions of independent actors, rather than though grandiose pronouncements from self-important economists.

But the current post has more modest goals: I just address whether the collapse of the dollar is inevitable. My conclusion is that it is not inevitable, but that the recent actions of the Fed have made it a possibility. This post is the appendix to Gold Does Not Have Intrinsic Value.

I write, “Of course, not all of the Fed’s portfolio is in AAA-rated securities and not everything with an AAA rating is worthless crap. They still have lots of T-Bills and there is a market for at least some of their AAA-rated securities. This is why the question of hyperinflation has become so murky.”

To answer your question, I don’t know - it’s murky.




They increase the Federal Funds Rate by selling T-Bills and destroying the cash. They decrease it by creating cash out of thin air and using it to buy T-Bills. Buying and selling assets, whether T-Bills or securities, is an effective means of controlling the money supply – in fact, it is their only means. It is called “open market operations.”

A lot of people think that the Fed sets the Federal Funds Rate by decree. The fact that the name has the word “Federal” in it tends to support this view. In fact, the Federal Funds Rate is set in the free market. It is the rate that banks loan money to each other overnight for the purpose of having enough cash on hand to meet reserve requirements. Those are private-party deals – they set their own terms without any decrees from the government.

But the Fed’s ability to create money out of thin air to buy short-term T-Bills has a powerful influence on short-term interest rates. So powerful, in fact, that the Fed can perform open market operations with such precision that they can set the Federal Funds Rate within a quarter of a percent. Banks loaning money to each other is a free market in the sense that nobody is told what to do but, at the same time, they can’t ignore the juggernaut that is the Fed.

Note: The Discount Rate is a different thing. It is the rate that the Fed charges when they loan money to banks that are temporarily unable to meet their reserve requirements. Since it is the Fed themselves who are loaning the money, they do set the Discount Rate by decree.

In the past, the Discount Rate was an ineffective tool because it was considered shameful for banks to ask the Fed for a loan, so they preferred to borrow from other banks if they could. But, as I discuss in my reply to MC.no.spin above, the Fed has recently made it less shameful by allowing banks to borrow from them anonymously. This is one reason why I think that credit limits are more important that interest rates.

Thanks. I had mixed up fed funds with the discount rate, its been a while since I took macroecon.
 
personally, I'm still waiting for the keynesians to be proved right about the value of gold. I believe the claim is it would drop to around $6 an ounce after all the countries of the world stopped using it.

how did that work out again? :2wave:
 
personally, I'm still waiting for the keynesians to be proved right about the value of gold. I believe the claim is it would drop to around $6 an ounce after all the countries of the world stopped using it.

how did that work out again? :2wave:

I've never heard that claim! Gold (like every other commodity) has value based on its use for jewelry, electronics, and by those who view it (like any other commodity) for investment purposes.
 
I've never heard that claim! Gold (like every other commodity) has value based on its use for jewelry, electronics, and by those who view it (like any other commodity) for investment purposes.

It's not something they like to brag about obviously. The point they had was that it would have no use in the investment community because the world would immediately fall in love with fiat. They insisted that gold was only valued at $35 because this was the value government "fixed" it at and if gold and the dollar were ever cut loose, we would see the price of gold sink rapidly to its non-monetary value (at the time) of $6 an ounce. Ludwig von Mises and others insisted that the price of gold would rise far higher, and history has again proven them correct.
 
It's not something they like to brag about obviously. The point they had was that it would have no use in the investment community because the world would immediately fall in love with fiat. They insisted that gold was only valued at $35 because this was the value government "fixed" it at and if gold and the dollar were ever cut loose, we would see the price of gold sink rapidly to its non-monetary value (at the time) of $6 an ounce. Ludwig von Mises and others insisted that the price of gold would rise far higher, and history has again proven them correct.

Interesting. It's always risky to speculate on the value of a commodity. Gold has always been valued for its beauty and non-tarnishing characteristics, and its also an excellent conductor of electricity. Like other commodities, it has an value independent of its historic use as a system of money. Other commodities (ie platinum) have higher values, even though its never been used as a form of money.
 
Back
Top Bottom