Obama seeks to silence ad tying him to 60s radical

CaptainCourtesy · 08-28-08, 04:27 AM

So let me understand this correctly. The issue here is that a connection is being made between Obama and Bill Ayers, the later, someone who, in the '60s was a leader of a radical group that either bombed or supported bombings in protest, but who has not been involved in that group, or in any violence in nearly 30 years, someone who Obama did not know, back then, and someone, who, there is no evidence has influenced Obama to believe in those radical views that he had, 30 years ago. WOW, real strong, relevant connection.

Let's not be obtuse here. The purpose of making this connection is to attempt to imply that Obama believes in the radical views that Ayers supported in the '60s...bombings and killings. . This is precisely the type of non-sequtur connection and misrepresentation that exposes a foolish attempt at smearing through illogic and inaccurate supposition.

Do I really need to point out the ridiculousness of this, or can you all figure it out yourselves?

MC.no.spin · 08-28-08, 04:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy

So let me understand this correctly. The issue here is that a connection is being made between Obama and Bill Ayers, the later, someone who, in the '60s was a leader of a radical group that either bombed or supported bombings in protest, but who has not been involved in that group, or in any violence in nearly 30 years, someone who Obama did not know, back then, and someone, who, there is no evidence has influenced Obama to believe in those radical views that he had, 30 years ago. WOW, real strong, relevant connection.

Let's not be obtuse here. The purpose of making this connection is to attempt to imply that Obama believes in the radical views that Ayers supported in the '60s...bombings and killings. . This is precisely the type of non-sequtur connection and misrepresentation that exposes a foolish attempt at smearing through illogic and inaccurate supposition.

Do I really need to point out the ridiculousness of this, or can you all figure it out yourselves?

Your conclusion for the purpose of the making of the connection with Ayers is incorrect. The ads will continue to unfold questioning Obama's judgement. Is he ready to lead? Etc. They are doing a workmanlike job of creating DOUBTS about Obama. Enough doubts and people will change their vote and pick McCain.

It's not about him being an Ayers clone or something, who by the way expresses no contrition for the bombings of the Capital and other buildings. "We didn't do enough." That's real mainstream.

CaptainCourtesy · 08-28-08, 05:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MC.no.spin

Your conclusion for the purpose of the making of the connection with Ayers is incorrect. The ads will continue to unfold questioning Obama's judgement. Is he ready to lead? Etc. They are doing a workmanlike job of creating DOUBTS about Obama. Enough doubts and people will change their vote and pick McCain.

I know I have questions about the people that Obama has associated with, however, I see little connection between these associations and his own pattern of behavior. Some of his choices seem curious and naive. I have a lot of respect for Joe Biden and am hopeful that he may assist Obama with this issue in the future.

Quote:

It's not about him being an Ayers clone or something, who by the way expresses no contrition for the bombings of the Capital and other buildings. "We didn't do enough." That's real mainstream.

His, "we didn't do enough" comment was taken out of context and not about the bombings. I agree that some of Ayers statements show that he does not regret some of his activities from that time, but his current/recent behavior does not echo his past positions.

And I think it is naive to believe that these ads are not attempting to imply that Obama believes what Ayers believed or did in the past was OK.

aps · 08-28-08, 05:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Truth Detector

Kind of similar to the Democrat/Liberal lies about how Bush lied us into war?

I don't believe it's just Democrats and Liberals who have stated that Bush lied us into a war.

Quote:

How about the Democrat lies about how Republicans are corrupt and molesters?

That is a matter of opinion, which can be supporte by some facts: Abramoff, DeLay, and for other examples, see posts by danarhea.

Quote:

How about the Democrat lies that we cannot win in Iraq?

Again, matter of opinion.

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How about the Democrat lies that our economy is a disaster or where some have even claimed we are in a depression?

Opinion.

Quote:

You people are definitely profound in your hypocritical double standards. The scary part is that many of you don't even see the profound hypocrisy in your statements.

*yawn* BOTH parties are hypocrites. It's normal.

Quote:

By the way, the McCain campaign had NOTHING to do with the myth that Obama was a Muslim and neither have I seen anyone on this forum who is Conservative "suggest" that he is. He does have an Islamic sounding name however. Perhaps that is causing some of the confusion.

I didn't see anything in the post to which you are responding that stated that the McCain campaign had something to do with calling Obama a Muslim. I wonder why you took it that way?

MC.no.spin · 08-28-08, 05:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy

I know I have questions about the people that Obama has associated with, however, I see little connection between these associations and his own pattern of behavior. Some of his choices seem curious and naive. I have a lot of respect for Joe Biden and am hopeful that he may assist Obama with this issue in the future.

His, "we didn't do enough" comment was taken out of context and not about the bombings. I agree that some of Ayers statements show that he does not regret some of his activities from that time, but his current/recent behavior does not echo his past positions.

And I think it is naive to believe that these ads are not attempting to imply that Obama believes what Ayers believed or did in the past was OK.

I think you're assuming Ayers was quoted out of context - is there something you are not confronting?

Read the NY Times article with direct interview:

Quote:

''I don't regret setting bombs,'' Bill Ayers said. ''I feel we didn't do enough.'' Mr. Ayers, who spent the 1970's as a fugitive in the Weather Underground, was sitting in the kitchen of his big turn-of-the-19th-century stone house in the Hyde Park district of Chicago. The long curly locks in his Wanted poster are shorn, though he wears earrings. He still has tattooed on his neck the rainbow-and-lightning Weathermen logo that appeared on letters taking responsibility for bombings. And he still has the ebullient, ingratiating manner, the apparently intense interest in other people, that made him a charismatic figure in the radical student movement.

Now he has written a book, ''Fugitive Days'' (Beacon Press, September). Mr. Ayers, who is 56, calls it a memoir, somewhat coyly perhaps, since he also says some of it is fiction. He writes that he participated in the bombings of New York City Police Headquarters in 1970, of the Capitol building in 1971, the Pentagon in 1972. But Mr. Ayers also seems to want to have it both ways, taking responsibility for daring acts in his youth, then deflecting it.

''Is this, then, the truth?,'' he writes. ''Not exactly. Although it feels entirely honest to me.''

But why would someone want to read a memoir parts of which are admittedly not true? Mr. Ayers was asked.

''Obviously, the point is it's a reflection on memory,'' he answered. ''It's true as I remember it.''

Mr. Ayers is probably safe from prosecution anyway. A spokeswoman for the Justice Department said there was a five-year statute of limitations on Federal crimes except in cases of murder or when a person has been indicted.

Mr. Ayers, who in 1970 was said to have summed up the Weatherman philosophy as: ''Kill all the rich people. Break up their cars and apartments. Bring the revolution home, kill your parents, that's where it's really at,'' is today distinguished professor of education at the University of Illinois at Chicago. And he says he doesn't actually remember suggesting that rich people be killed or that people kill their parents, but ''it's been quoted so many times I'm beginning to think I did,'' he said. ''It was a joke about the distribution of wealth.''

He went underground in 1970, after his girlfriend, Diana Oughton, and two other people were killed when bombs they were making exploded in a Greenwich Village town house. With him in the Weather Underground was Bernardine Dohrn, who was put on the F.B.I.'s 10 Most Wanted List. J. Edgar Hoover called her ''the most dangerous woman in America'' and ''la Pasionara of the Lunatic Left.'' Mr. Ayers and Ms. Dohrn later married.

In his book Mr. Ayers describes the Weathermen descending into a ''whirlpool of violence.''

''Everything was absolutely ideal on the day I bombed the Pentagon,'' he writes. But then comes a disclaimer: ''Even though I didn't actually bomb the Pentagon -- we bombed it, in the sense that Weathermen organized it and claimed it.'' He goes on to provide details about the manufacture of the bomb and how a woman he calls Anna placed the bomb in a restroom. No one was killed or injured, though damage was extensive.

Between 1970 and 1974 the Weathermen took responsibility for 12 bombings, Mr. Ayers writes, and also helped spring Timothy Leary (sentenced on marijuana charges) from jail.

Today, Mr. Ayers and Ms. Dohrn, 59, who is director of the Legal Clinic's Children and Family Justice Center of Northwestern University, seem like typical baby boomers, caring for aging parents, suffering the empty-nest syndrome. Their son, Malik, 21, is at the University of California, San Diego; Zayd, 24, teaches at Boston University. They have also brought up Chesa Boudin, 21, the son of David Gilbert and Kathy Boudin, who are serving prison terms for a 1981 robbery of a Brinks truck in Rockland County, N.Y., that left four people dead. Last month, Ms. Boudin's application for parole was rejected.

So, would Mr. Ayers do it all again, he is asked? ''I don't want to discount the possibility,'' he said.

...

No Regrets for a Love Of Explosives; In a Memoir of Sorts, a War Protester Talks of Life With the Weathermen - New York Times

CaptainCourtesy · 08-28-08, 05:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MC.no.spin

I think you're assuming Ayers was quoted out of context - is there something you are not confronting?

Read the NY Times article with direct interview:

No Regrets for a Love Of Explosives; In a Memoir of Sorts, a War Protester Talks of Life With the Weathermen - New York Times

His comment "we didn't do enough" was surrounding the overall protesting of the Vietnam war. I do not deny that he admitted to, at the very least, participating in the planning of bombings, and, at the time, wanting to bomb certain government buildings. Back in the '60's the Weathermen were a radical terrorist group, at least IMO. Still, this was nearly 30 years ago. I have no idea how any of this relates to Obama.

MC.no.spin · 08-28-08, 05:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy

His comment "we didn't do enough" was surrounding the overall protesting of the Vietnam war. I do not deny that he admitted to, at the very least, participating in the planning of bombings, and, at the time, wanting to bomb certain government buildings. Back in the '60's the Weathermen were a radical terrorist group, at least IMO. Still, this was nearly 30 years ago. I have no idea how any of this relates to Obama.

How do you know that this did not involve bombs when that was the activity he had just mentioned before making the statement? Are you using a crystal ball in this debate?
How about a link?

bhkad · 08-28-08, 05:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cascadian

So this guy throws a fund raiser for Obama. *yawn*

Perhaps the whole city of chicago should feel recalcitrant for accepting this guy who sounds more like an ass than a real radical (I'm talking about philosophy here, not actions).
Rejecting Obama's Radical Friends - TIME

Quote:

WordNet - Cite This Source - Share This
recalcitrant

adjective
1. stubbornly resistant to authority or control; "a fractious animal that would not submit to the harness"; "a refractory child" [syn: fractious]
2. marked by stubborn resistance to authority; "the University suspended the most recalcitrant demonstrators"

WordNet® 3.0, © 2006 by Princeton University.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cascadian

How about McCain and Liddy?
With friends like these ... -- chicagotribune.com

"Last November, McCain went on his radio show. Liddy greeted him as "an old friend," and McCain sounded like one. "I'm proud of you, I'm proud of your family," he gushed. "It's always a pleasure for me to come on your program, Gordon, and congratulations on your continued success and adherence to the principles and philosophies that keep our nation great."

Which principles would those be? The ones that told Liddy it was fine to break into the office of the Democratic National Committee to plant bugs and photograph documents? The ones that made him propose to kidnap anti-war activists so they couldn't disrupt the 1972 Republican National Convention? The ones that inspired him to plan the murder (never carried out) of an unfriendly newspaper columnist?"

Anarchists, revolutionaries and radical leftists appeal to those who harbor those same kinds of ideologies or those without a strong sense of right and wrong.

So I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that if you are morally relativistic you can't see the difference between Bill Ayers and G. Gordon Liddy.

It may be hard for you to understand but Liddy's entire life has been dedicated to trying to make this country a better place and/or to protect our Constitutional freedoms. He has never tried to harm his country.

On the other hand, Bill Ayers was at war with America from the time he was a teen and he has never lost his contempt of America. He is at war with all that we hold dear and that which helps us enjoy our lifestyles and freedoms. Indirectly, Bill Ayers is at war with you and I.

If a thousand Gordon Liddy's were let loose all over America, we'd have a better, safer place to live. If we unleashed 1,000 Ayers' onto America we soon might not have an America at all, or one that is anything like the one we know and love.

And it is altogether fitting that Liddy, a man of character and honor, would be respected after having led an adventurous life of achievement, sacrifice and duty to this country. And even at the lowest time in his life he conducted himself with honor and courage. Though he was involved in criminal acts he was doing what he believed was right and was willing to take his lumps without complaint or expectation of leniency.

Quote:

For his role in Watergate, which he coordinated with Hunt, Liddy was convicted of conspiracy, burglary and illegal wiretapping, and received a 20-year sentence. He served a total of five and half years in prison, including over 100 days in solitary confinement, before his sentence was commuted by President Jimmy Carter and he was released on September 7, 1977.

G. Gordon Liddy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

He showed his character during and after the trial by never being broken under interrogation or testimony and in spite of the 20 year sentence he was given, the severity of which was thought by many to be an inducement to make him betray his co-conspirators as well as his principles. But he never did.

Quote:

From soldier to Washington insider; from a prisoner who preferred the walls of a prison rather than the betrayal of his principles; to a writer and top radio personality, G. Gordon Liddy is a hero to some, a villain to others, but always an enigma. A number one national bestseller in both hardcover and paperback, Will has stood the test of time like few other books. With over 1,000,000 copies in print, it is nothing less than a quintessential American biography - a classic story of a life interestingly led.

Will: The Autobiography of G. Gordon ... - Google Book Search

As far as talking about shooting law enforcement agents, the statements were taken out of context.

Quote:

I was talking about a situation in which law enforced agents comes smashing into a house, doesn't say who they are, and their guns are out, they're shooting, and they're in the wrong place. This has happened time and time again. The ATF has gone in and gotten the wrong guy in the wrong place. The law is that if somebody is shooting at you, using deadly force, the mere fact that they are a law enforcement officer, if they are in the wrong, does not mean you are obliged to allow yourself to be killed so your kinfolk can have a wrongful death action. You are legally entitled to defend yourself and I was speaking of exactly those kind of situations. If you're going to do that, you should know that they're wearing body armor so you should use a head shot. Now all I'm doing is stating the law, but all the nuances in there got left out when the story got repeated.

G. Gordon Liddy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Compare Liddy to Ayers?

Here ya go. This should tell you everything you need to know.

Bill Ayers 2001

And I don't expect John McCain to hide or sweep Liddy under the rug, throw him under the bus, disown him suddenly or lie about their relationship, whatever it might be.

CaptainCourtesy · 08-28-08, 05:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MC.no.spin

How do you know that this did not involve bombs when that was the activity he had just mentioned before making the statement? Are you using a crystal ball in this debate?
How about a link?

A crystal ball? No reason to get nasty.

Quote:

Much of the controversy about Ayers during the decade since the year 2000 stems from an interview he gave to the New York Times on the occasion of the memoir's publication. The reporter quoted him as saying "I don't regret setting bombs" and "I feel we didn't do enough", and, when asked if he would "do it all again" as saying "I don't want to discount the possibility." Ayers has not denied the quotes, but he protested the interviewer's characterizations in a Letter to the Editor published September 15, 2001: "This is not a question of being misunderstood or 'taken out of context', but of deliberate distortion." In the ensuing years, Ayers has repeatedly avowed that when he said he had "no regrets" and that "we didn't do enough" he was speaking only in reference to his efforts to stop the United States from waging the Vietnam War, efforts which he has described as ". . . inadequate [as] the war dragged on for a decade." Ayers has maintained that the two statements were not intended to imply a wish they had set more bombs.
Bill Ayers - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Or, from his letter to the editor of the NYT on 9/15/01, clarifying the article written on 9/11/01:

Quote:

Smith’s angle is captured in the Times headline: “No regrets for a love of explosives” (September 11, 2001). She and I spoke a lot about regrets, about loss, about attempts to account for one’s life. I never said I had any love for explosives, and anyone who knows me found that headline sensationalistic nonsense. I said I had a thousand regrets, but no regrets for opposing the war with every ounce of my strength. I told her that in light of the indiscriminate murder of millions of Vietnamese, we showed remarkable restraint, and that while we tried to sound a piercing alarm in those years, in fact we didn’t do enough to stop the war.

Clarifying the Facts— a letter to the New York Times, 9-15-2001 Bill Ayers

I hope this suffices. I don't make things up, Spin.

EDIT: Fixed first link.

bhkad · 08-28-08, 05:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy

So let me understand this correctly. The issue here is that a connection is being made between Obama and Bill Ayers, the later, someone who, in the '60s was a leader of a radical group that either bombed or supported bombings in protest, but who has not been involved in that group, or in any violence in nearly 30 years, someone who Obama did not know, back then, and someone, who, there is no evidence has influenced Obama to believe in those radical views that he had, 30 years ago. WOW, real strong, relevant connection.

Let's not be obtuse here. The purpose of making this connection is to attempt to imply that Obama believes in the radical views that Ayers supported in the '60s...bombings and killings. . This is precisely the type of non-sequtur connection and misrepresentation that exposes a foolish attempt at smearing through illogic and inaccurate supposition.

Do I really need to point out the ridiculousness of this, or can you all figure it out yourselves?

If you scan the thread, last page first, you will find corroborating information in the form of poster commentaries, links, cut n pastes and images.

08-28-08, 04:27 AM	#111
CaptainCourtesy Resident Despot Mod Team Member Join Date: May 2006 Last Seen: Today 04:15 AM Posts: 32,569 Thanks: 9,717 Thanked 9,286 Times in 5,617 Posts Gender: Total Awards: 1	Re: Obama seeks to silence ad tying him to 60s radical So let me understand this correctly. The issue here is that a connection is being made between Obama and Bill Ayers, the later, someone who, in the '60s was a leader of a radical group that either bombed or supported bombings in protest, but who has not been involved in that group, or in any violence in nearly 30 years, someone who Obama did not know, back then, and someone, who, there is no evidence has influenced Obama to believe in those radical views that he had, 30 years ago. WOW, real strong, relevant connection. Let's not be obtuse here. The purpose of making this connection is to attempt to imply that Obama believes in the radical views that Ayers supported in the '60s...bombings and killings. . This is precisely the type of non-sequtur connection and misrepresentation that exposes a foolish attempt at smearing through illogic and inaccurate supposition. Do I really need to point out the ridiculousness of this, or can you all figure it out yourselves?
	__________________ "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run ====\|\|:-D

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