More gay men embrace marriage, fatherhood.

Orion · 08-18-08, 08:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by American

"It Takes A Village"

And...? What, exactly?

1069 · 08-18-08, 09:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orius

And...? What, exactly?

... to raise a child.
"It takes a village to raise a child."

It's a saying. Have you never heard it?
Do you not understand what it means? How it relates to this discussion?

Orion · 08-18-08, 09:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1069

... to raise a child.
"It takes a village to raise a child."

It's a saying. Have you never heard it?
Do you not understand what it means? How it relates to this discussion?

Nope I've never heard that saying, besides you are not the person who posted it, so I want to hear American's explanation.

The silenced majority · 08-19-08, 08:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy

Here are the studies supporting my position that children in same-sex households do, at least, as well, overall as those in heterosexual households. Universally, studies show that not only do same-sex parents perform as well as straight parents (whose children would probably be biological), but do better at times. As far as children's emotional health goes, studies show that, on 4 important scales, there is little or no difference between children reared from single-sex families and those from straight parents (whose children would probably be biological). The 4 components examined were Gender Identity, Gender Role Behavior, Sexual Orientation, and Other Aspects of Personal Development, such as Social Relationships. One difference they did find was that children raised by single-sex parents tend to be more flexible and less closed-minded in their thinking.

a few notes…

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frederick W. Bozett, "Gay Fathers: A Review of the Literature," p. 152

"Most studies of gay fathers are based on nonrandom small sample sizes, with subjects who are Caucasian, middle- to upper-class, well educated with occupations commensurate with their education, who come mostly from urban centers, and who are relatively accepting of their homosexuality. There is severely limited knowledge of gay fathers who vary from these demographics. Moreover, the validity and reliability of the instruments used in the studies reported are not always addressed."

Quote:

Originally Posted by J. J. Bigner and R. B. Jacobson: Adult Responses to Child Behavior and Attitudes Toward Fathering: Gay and Nongay Fathers," Journal of Homosexuality 23 (1992): 99--112.

Those who do study gay fathers may be frustrated by the difficulties of obtaining valid and adequate sample sizes. Most often, researchers must deal with many methodological problems in locating and testing gay fathers in numbers sufficiently large to make acceptable statistical analyses of data. For this reason, what is known currently about gay fathers is weakened by these methodological problems. It is practically impossible to obtain a representative sample of gay fathers, and those studies published to date frequently utilize groups of white, urban, well-educated males for study because of convenience sampling.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Child Adjustment and Parenting in Planned Lesbian-Parent Families: Bos et al p.39

A letter of invitation was sent to the 178 lesbian-parent families
that met the criteria for participation. Of these families, 43 were
sourced through the medical center, 60 through the interest group,
and 75 through experts in the area of gay and lesbian parenting.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Child Adjustment and Parenting in Planned Lesbian-Parent Families: Bos et al p.46

"The fact that lesbian social mothers feel the need to justify the quality of their parenthood is probably a result of the societal pressure to be visible as a mother that these mothers feel"

Quote:

Originally Posted by Child Adjustment and Parenting in Planned Lesbian-Parent Families: Bos et al p.46

The lesbian women in
both studies tended to be more highly educated and to live in an
urban area. Another remark is that we matched the planned
lesbian-parent and heterosexual-parent families on a limit number
of sociodemographic variables (e.g., age and gender of the target
child, urbanization level). Both family types were—for example—
not matched on variables such as educational level or income.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cc

That's TWELVE.

And that's enough for tonight.

Yeah, I’m bored too.

Why don’t you take a look at this study? It points out the critical flaws in many of the studies you’ve posted such as: nonlongitudinal design, inadequate sample size, biased sample selection, lack of proper controls, and failure to account for confounding variables...

Check pages 118-122.

Let’s see…

You can remove the Kirkpatrick, Flaks, Bozett, Bigner, Golombok, Miller, Green studies for the abovementioned flaws.

Your mighty 12 is now a mere 5, I think that similar conclusions can be drawn about the Bos study, but I’ll let you keep it.

I’d hate to think of what a blow having 3/4th of your list decimated would do to your psyche.

It appears not too much has changed since the days of Hooker & the Mattachine Society in regards to stacked test sampling for the sake of an advancement of a cause, does it?

Anyhow…

1069 · 08-19-08, 08:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orius

Nope I've never heard that saying, besides you are not the person who posted it, so I want to hear American's explanation.

I don't have to be the person who posted it.
It's what he was referring to.
it's a saying.
The meaning of it is self-explanatory.

Orion · 08-19-08, 11:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1069

I don't have to be the person who posted it.
It's what he was referring to.
it's a saying.
The meaning of it is self-explanatory.

It's not self-explanitory if I have no idea what you're talking about. I get it now though, so let's move on.

CaptainCourtesy · 08-20-08, 12:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The silenced majority

a few notes…

Yeah, I’m bored too.

Why don’t you take a look at this study? It points out the critical flaws in many of the studies you’ve posted such as: nonlongitudinal design, inadequate sample size, biased sample selection, lack of proper controls, and failure to account for confounding variables...

Check pages 118-122.

Let’s see…

You can remove the Kirkpatrick, Flaks, Bozett, Bigner, Golombok, Miller, Green studies for the abovementioned flaws.

Your mighty 12 is now a mere 5, I think that similar conclusions can be drawn about the Bos study, but I’ll let you keep it.

I’d hate to think of what a blow having 3/4th of your list decimated would do to your psyche.

It appears not too much has changed since the days of Hooker & the Mattachine Society in regards to stacked test sampling for the sake of an advancement of a cause, does it?

Anyhow…

I've read the Lerner report. I don't hold much stock in it. The only point Lerner has is that most of the studies do not have large sample sizes. This is accurate and would be a problem if the studies did not report the same findings. This is quite similar to the Hooker study. Small sample size. Consistently reproducible. The validity stands.

But, I'll tell you what. I'll show how the methodology that Lerner claims is poor, is, in fact, an inaccuracy on his part. Let's start here:

Quote:

Frederick W. Bozett, "Gay Fathers: A Review of the Literature," p. 152 "Most studies of gay fathers are based on nonrandom small sample sizes, with subjects who are Caucasian, middle- to upper-class, well educated with occupations commensurate with their education, who come mostly from urban centers, and who are relatively accepting of their homosexuality. There is severely limited knowledge of gay fathers who vary from these demographics. Moreover, the validity and reliability of the instruments used in the studies reported are not always addressed."

Firstly, it is difficult to randomize a sample when you have a limited group to work from. Randomness debunked. Secondly, the socio-economics of the sample is irrelevant. Check the socio-economics of heterosexuals adopting. With costs and screenings, I'd imagine that we would find a similar group. How many non-middle or upper class heteros adopt? Statistic show that a higher proportion of children are adopted by middle or upper class households, and higher proportion are adopted by those who are well educated. Go to page 16 of the census report at this link for the data:
http://www.census.gov/prod/2003pubs/censr-6.pdf
There is nothing unusual about the demographics in Bozett.

Lerner is debunked X1.

Quote:

J. J. Bigner and R. B. Jacobson: Adult Responses to Child Behavior and Attitudes Toward Fathering: Gay and Nongay Fathers," Journal of Homosexuality 23 (1992): 99--112. Those who do study gay fathers may be frustrated by the difficulties of obtaining valid and adequate sample sizes. Most often, researchers must deal with many methodological problems in locating and testing gay fathers in numbers sufficiently large to make acceptable statistical analyses of data. For this reason, what is known currently about gay fathers is weakened by these methodological problems. It is practically impossible to obtain a representative sample of gay fathers, and those studies published to date frequently utilize groups of white, urban, well-educated males for study because of convenience sampling.

Same problem as above. Already shown to be irrelevant.

Lerner is debunked X2.

Quote:

Child Adjustment and Parenting in Planned Lesbian-Parent Families: Bos et al p.39 A letter of invitation was sent to the 178 lesbian-parent families
that met the criteria for participation. Of these families, 43 were
sourced through the medical center, 60 through the interest group,
and 75 through experts in the area of gay and lesbian parenting.

I can see the possibility of some bias in this study, though just because the participants were obtained through activist sources does not, necessarily mean that their information was invalid.

This one you can have...barely.

Quote:

Child Adjustment and Parenting in Planned Lesbian-Parent Families: Bos et al p.46 "The fact that lesbian social mothers feel the need to justify the quality of their parenthood is probably a result of the societal pressure to be visible as a mother that these mothers feel"

This comment is nothing more than a value judgement that shows Lerner's own bias. Nothing here that invalidates the study in any way.

Lerner is debunked X3.

Quote:

Child Adjustment and Parenting in Planned Lesbian-Parent Families: Bos et al p.46 The lesbian women in
both studies tended to be more highly educated and to live in an
urban area. Another remark is that we matched the planned
lesbian-parent and heterosexual-parent families on a limit number
of sociodemographic variables (e.g., age and gender of the target
child, urbanization level). Both family types were—for example—
not matched on variables such as educational level or income.

The socio-economics of the participants are irrelevant, as I have shown. It is true that the family types were not matched on variable such as educational level or income. What this means is that when creating both the lesbian and hetero samples, an attempt to match up their income and educational level was not attempted. Lerner, however, conveniently, forgets this important fact: no significant differences were found in the present study between planned lesbian-parent and heterosexual-parent families on educational level. What this means is that, without intent, the samples sizes matched up. Here it is, directly from the study, itself:

Quote:

Another remark is that we matched the planned
lesbian-parent and heterosexual-parent families on a limit number
of sociodemographic variables (e.g., age and gender of the target
child, urbanization level). Both family types were—for example—
not matched on variables such as educational level or income. In
the Netherlands income is highly correlated with educational level.
In research literature (e.g., Hoff, Laursen, & Tardiff, 2002;
Paulussen-Hoogeboom, 2006) it has been has found that educational
level is an important predictor of parenting; however, no
significant differences were found in the present study between
planned lesbian-parent and heterosexual-parent families on educational
level. Therefore, both groups are comparable on this aspect.
http://www.meerdangewenst.nl/documenten/AJOP.pdf

Very shoddy and, IMO, intentionally biased research on Lerner's part. My guess, with further examination, we would find holes like this in many of his explanations. He messed up. As did you.

Lerner is debunked X4.

So, that's one I give you. One out of my 12. I know it must really burn you that, not only have I shown your attempts to debunk the research I presented to be nothing but irrelevancies and bias, themselves, but it really must decimate your psyche that you have been completely unable to EVER come up with one valid study that proves your position.

As always, TSM, your position has no valid evidence.

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