Originally Posted by WI Crippler

Yeah, If people view America only from within, most would say that this country is becoming a left leaning state. But from a world wide perspective, we a still very much a right of center country and have a long ways to go before we enter the "left". Its a perspective you can have, but if you accept that perspective, and then argue against how our country is leaning too far to the right, where does that enscone you in a world view? Either in the center, or left of center. In a domestic view, you become very much a extreme left character. So both perspectives are actually correct, if they are applied correctly. Calling someone like 1069 an extreme leftist makes sense, domestically. Calling her that abroad, she'd likely still be left of center, but less so. Both narrow and broad perspectives apply. What we need to be concerned about is our opinion of how we want our country run. Not how Europe wants it run. Not how China wants it run. Not how Iran wants it run. Not how Israel wants it run. IMO, a broad perspective is fine for knowledge and awareness, but a local or domestic perspective is at least equally, if not more important for the sustainability of a country, especially in an election year.

Originally Posted by new coup for you

But we don't have to choose between Thatcher and Stalin.

When it works, don't change it. When it doesn't, we should. It's as simple as that.

Dismissing failures with "well they're not working hard enough" is exactly what all ideologues do. In China they didn't love their fellow workers enough, in Iran they don't love Allah enough.

I'm not going to be dragged into that debate. There are problems that need solutions. If the market can't present them don't try to justify it.

Originally Posted by new coup for you

But I'm not interested in ideology I'm interested in problems and solutions.

We have problems in this country that other countries have solved. I see no reason why not try our their methods. I think arguing about freedom is a waste of time. The market has failed in certain sectors. It's indisputable. Obviously it's not the solution. So i've concluded, purely out a concern for progress, to try something else.

Obviously Europe has its own problems, and I don't advocate adopting their system entirely. What I advocate is doing what has been proven works.

Our healthcare system is a perfect example. It doesn't work. In Europe it does. Any reasonable conclusion would be to try to adopt their system, or better yet, synthesize a new system which has what's best about ours and avoids the problems of theirs.

When the free market works, we should use it. When it doesn't, we shouldn't. There are very obvious failures of the market in today's America. It does mostly work, and I admit that. But to continue to ignore its failures is a crime to a people who are suffering because of them.

Only someone completely blinded by ideology, or motivated by self serving greed, would disagree.

Originally Posted by new coup for you

I'm not going to exchange rhetoric with you, I don't care about ideology I care about issues.

There are hard working Americans who don't have healthcare. That's wrong. It needs a solution. The market isn't providing one.

Originally Posted by WI Crippler

Well then mark me down as one of the following. The problem with markets failing isn't that they fail, its that our government is willing to shell out money to prop them up when they fail(at least the big ones) creating a situation where failure is almost rewarded. Its like handing out participation trophies to kids that suck at sports.

We have to realize we have a different culture and dynamic population than Europe. Any adaptation of any European, or even Canadian system would have to be examined and scrutinized heavily. What works for their population, and geography might not work here, and if implemented would completely cripple this country in ways we have never seen in our lifetime. I think socialized healthcare would destroy our economy, and send it into a real depression cycle. The government would have to borrow/create too muchg money to fund such a system. Not to mention the inefficiencies of timely treatment, and the lack of development of new procedures and technologies that most socialized countries have. We might be able to afford to buy everybody some 'tussin. Thats about it.

Originally Posted by new coup for you

I'm not going to exchange rhetoric with you, I don't care about ideology I care about issues.