Trinity: Fact or Fiction?

Peralin · 08-28-05, 11:33 PM

Why do people believe that the Trinity exists? Does Jesus ever say that he is God? If so, why does he pray to God? If they were one, Jesus would not be praying to himself, would he?

If Jesus did not say that he was God, and there is evidence that shows that Jesus could not be God, then why is it such a popular belief? As far as I know, there is no solid evidence that Jesus was a God (within the Bible). And isn't Catholicism based solely upon the teachings of the New Testament? Why would Constantine and the other Catholic leaders decide that Jesus and God were one?

leejosepho · 08-29-05, 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peralin

If Jesus did not say that he was God, and there is evidence that shows that Jesus could not be God, then why is it such a popular belief?

Although quite unwittingly for at least most people -- the deceived -- who proclaim him divine, "Jesus" is about their trying to get around, get past and/or even actually get free of/from "God" altogether. That can be evidenced in various ways, yet with the bogus "Grace (license) versus Law (accountability)" argument being their essence.

ILikeDubyah · 08-30-05, 03:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peralin

Why do people believe that the Trinity exists? Does Jesus ever say that he is God? If so, why does he pray to God? If they were one, Jesus would not be praying to himself, would he?

If Jesus did not say that he was God, and there is evidence that shows that Jesus could not be God, then why is it such a popular belief? As far as I know, there is no solid evidence that Jesus was a God (within the Bible). And isn't Catholicism based solely upon the teachings of the New Testament? Why would Constantine and the other Catholic leaders decide that Jesus and God were one?

christiananswers.net in the FAQ section should answer your questions about where it's referenced in the bible that Jesus is God & man.l

y not peace? · 08-30-05, 04:03 PM

peralin:

I dont understand your point? You are right. Jesus is Jesus. God is God. Spirit is Spirit. BUT

They are in internal sequence, which doesnt mean that Jesus IS God, but part of Him.

Peralin · 08-30-05, 07:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by y not peace?

peralin:

I dont understand your point? You are right. Jesus is Jesus. God is God. Spirit is Spirit. BUT

They are in internal sequence, which doesnt mean that Jesus IS God, but part of Him.

What is that supposed to mean? Are they one or three? How can Jesus possibly be part of God without actually being him? And why is it that Catholics use the words GOD and JESUS interchangably (or whatever that long word is). Is doesn't make sense to me why anyone would believe that they are both 1 and 3 at the same time.

It is impossible! (Right, nothing is impossible with God, yadda yadda yadda...)

ILikeDubyah · 08-30-05, 08:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peralin

What is that supposed to mean? Are they one or three? How can Jesus possibly be part of God without actually being him? And why is it that Catholics use the words GOD and JESUS interchangably (or whatever that long word is). Is doesn't make sense to me why anyone would believe that they are both 1 and 3 at the same time.

It is impossible! (Right, nothing is impossible with God, yadda yadda yadda...)

Yes, from man's standpoint, it is impossible, and yes, with God, everything is possible. As a Catholic, I do interchange the words...the holy trinity is just that, holy. "Father, Son and Spirit, God in 3 persons, Blessed Trinity" As for why we believe this, it's called Blind Faith, which goes along with other things we believe, such as the bread & wine actually DO change into the body & blood at the time of the concecration....It's not just symbolic, It's very real.

leejosepho · 08-30-05, 11:00 PM

Greetings, Peralin.

Even though I spent the first twenty-five years of my life deeply involved in Protest-ant Christianity, the sectarian idea of a mystical and so-called “trinity” has *never* made any sense to me. Simply put: No father can be his own son and no son can be his own father even if the wife of the alleged father-son and mother of the alleged son-father is some kind of never-out-of-breath spirit whose son who is a ... ah, no, I will not speak that.

Zeroing in a bit ...

I have heard people attempt to explain the so-called “Trinity” by making reference to the shell (1), white (2) and yoke (3) of an egg (3-as-1, or “triune”), but that analogy makes it seem to me that the components of that “egg” are inherently dependent upon that specific combination (a greater truth or entity or whatever) for their very existences, and it further begs some questions about the origin and identity of the evidently-pre-existent “chicken” who laid it ... and if we keep going on from there, we next have to ask the value of an unfertilized egg and/or exactly who (even greater) is going to take care of that particular matter!

Yes, Humpty-Dumpty has fallen ... and is never to be re-assembled in my own mind.

YHWH (Abba-Father) is One, just one, and He is “a man of his word”, so to speak, and His dependable “Word” (later manifest in His Son) was “there with Him ‘in the beginning’” (John 1:1), and since His later-sent Son is a trustworthy “chip off the old block”, so to speak, He (the Son) has inherited all His Father has (as should any good son), and taking heed of either is essentially the same as taking heed of the other. And as to “Spirit”? That essentially amounts to the power of YHWH’s attributes and character, or overall “clout”.

I still have many questions of my own, Peralin, but for now I am reasonably content with the above.

staple · 08-31-05, 02:33 PM

Since some people have a question, reading the Bible should help.

kal-el · 08-31-05, 04:28 PM

Concerning if Jesus is God or not, you will not find the answer in the Bible, as there are many inconspicuoseies:

Quote:

Matthew 3:17
And a voice from heaven said, "This is my son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased."

This states that Jesus is ineed the son of God, as his father aknowledges him.

Quote:

Exodus 3:14
And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

Quote:

Matthew 19:28
And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

In the first verse, God is saying to Moses, that HE will be the one sent. And in the second verse, Jesus is saying that he is the being that sits on the throne of glory, in other words, he is saying he is the Almighty.

leejosepho · 08-31-05, 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kal-el

... in [Matthew 19:28], Jesus is saying that he is the being that sits on the throne of glory, in other words, he is saying he is the Almighty.

No, that is not so. To wit (from a variety of translations):

“... when the Son of Man will rule gloriously …”

“... when the Son of Man may sit upon a throne ...” (emphasis added)

“... when the Son of Adam sits on the throne of His esteem ...”

“... when the Son of man shall sit on the seat of his [own] majesty ...”

“... when the Son of Man has taken His seat on His glorious throne ...”

“... on his glorious throne in the renewed creation ...”

Also, even the context of Matthew 19 is about others, and not Himself.