Orion

Fair enough.

I can understand that. It has been fairly controversial in China since the idea to build it was reborn. I still think China is trying to turn its polluting ways around, even if it's an uphill battle. The rest of the world is shouting at China to become more environmentally conscious, but I think there is even more domestic pressure to do so; after all, it's the Chinese who have to live in the mess.

Orion

Not really. China may be Communist at the top but its economy is Capitalist. It can't force big changes without alienating outside investors. Also, the U.S. is already a full industrialized nation with the technological resources to make the change.

You have been the one in this thread pointing the finger at China and saying, "Hey, look at what they're doing over there!", while adding very little to the actual debate. Maybe if you and others who enjoy transferring the blame to others in the world spent half of that energy researching the ways your own government is doing harm to the environment and its own people, you could have affected change already.

Reverend_Hellh0und

it can force change faster than we can legislate change wich btw would simply send production off shore.

Problem NOT solved.




This is a thread about china, and I have not only added to the debate, I discuss anything with anyone regarding the topic. Again this is a thread about china. It is you who is pointing the finger at the US.

But back to the discussion.

China for far too long has been treated with kid gloves. If they want to be an equal world partner they need to be treated as such.

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Orion

Please provide evidence of somewhere China itself would send production that is cheaper than within its own borders that has an equivalent labour force. I'll save you the time: no such place exists. There is nowhere cheaper to produce goods than China, which China knows and so does the rest of the world.

All you've contributed to the debate are trite little jabs at China that have no constructed argument. You posted a link talking about China as the #1 polluter, and I was pointing out that you live in the U.S. which is the #2 polluter. If you want to complain then do it to your own government, as the polluting nations are all equally responsible for global environmental crisis.

They already are being "treated as such". They are a major economic partner to most developed nations, and there is already plenty of pressure being placed on them by the UN for their environmental and humanitarian woes.

However, I suggest that they deserve some respect given their history and their rapid rise to economic development in the past 30 years. They are doing well in a relatively short period of history. The environmental problems will be solved... it's not like China is ignoring them. The humanitarian issues... a lot of them tie into the environmental ones (i.e. access to safe drinking water, the right to not be exposed to toxic chemicals, etc.) which are being worked on.

On the whole, I still think China is rising out of its mess. Most of the contempt coming from the West, in my opinion, stems from the fact that China managed to carve its own way to propserity while preserving Communism. (Maybe economically it has waivered on this, but I digress.) How ironic that a modern state founded on Communism is now a major provider and shareholder for the Democratic states! The West is definitely a little jealous.

Reverend_Hellh0und

I was talking about us. That if we put in the restraints that Orious was discussing with me that business would simply move. To Mexico, or china. To that fact is why I stated that a level playing field internationally would be required in order to lessen the pollution factor.




I did. Why can't I talk about Chinese pollution in a chinese thread. If this were a US thread why would I be REQUIRED to talk about china?

Fair is fair, given your request.

And if you don't like my posts I believe you can choose not to respond to them.



at pressure from the UN. We all know the "weight" that carries.

What has china done to alleviate thier problem?


How? and since we made it a US vs. China thing. Who is doing more? Please provide evidence.



China only boomed as you pointed out due to capitalism not on the morally bankrupt ideology of marx.

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Orion

The playing field can't be level when developed nations are actively and knowingly exploiting these regions for their economic benefits.

Please don't feign objectivity now, when earlier in this very thread you were busy badmouthing China without any clear education on the subject matter. Just like you accused me of attempting to excuse the fact that China is Communist. Then you accused me of being authoritarian when I tried to explain how fear of chaos is relevant to the regime's tight grip. More examples of your blatant bias:

The Earth is a closed system so any polluters affect everyone. We could just as easily talk about #3 or #4 on that list. I brought up the U.S. because you are an American and in past posts about China you seem to enjoy insulting their government without any real understanding of what their government is doing right now. You paint a bleak picture of disaster at every turn where their government is doing nothing good for the people. I mention the U.S. by comparison because if where you are living is so holier-than-thou, then why aren't there significant undertakings at curbing environmental damage in your "free" country?

I have considered this option... but since you have taken the time to answer me, I will respectfully write something in reply.

Not going to go there.

There have already been two examples in this very thread: the Three Gorges Dam, and the city of Rizhao.

It's not a competition, but a complimentary process. Why should China clean up if the U.S. isn't? Why should China be expected to modify its internal policy to offset climate change when the U.S. has repeatedly backed out of international attempts at environmental solidarity? Why does the U.S. get to point the finger at China instead of at itself? Why do Americans point the finger and then many don't even lift a finger to pick up a phone, call their Congress person, and demand better environmental standards within the #2 polluter in the world? In China people can't slam their government like Americans can in the U.S., and yet the U.S. is #2 on the list of worst polluters.

China has actively been purchasing technology from the U.S. for decades now for all sorts of things. It could just as easily decide to start purchasing green technology, which it should be doing. Likewise, why isn't the U.S. implementing this green technology on a national scale? In another thread on these boards, it was established that there is more than sufficient venture capital going into alternative energy development, but it lacks government impetus for wide scale implementation. Why does the U.S. government cling to oil at all when, as a technologically advanced nation, it has the ability to change right now?

It's not that black and white. Pick up a history book. The authoritarianism of Communism provided the impetus for the creation of Special Economic Zones (mostly coastal cities, at first). Once the free market entered these regions, it took off. China still has control over where the economy spreads within its own country. Within the laws of China, the CCP still technically has the authority to shutdown Capitalism tomorrow, even though this would never happen; whereas in America, free market access in enshrined in law. In China it is a privilege, not a right. It also has complete authority over the capital within its borders, unlike Western nations. Communism provided the iron fist for rapid changes that have allowed China to survive. If it had a Democratic polity, it would have taken far longer and we wouldn't be seeing the boom we are today.

jfuh

Two reasons.
First, it's the most populous nation in the world with aerable acerage that is far less than what is available to 300million in the US.
Second, that the US is now ruled by morons doesn't mean that China has to follow suit or that what the US does not do justifies China not doing what is right.

Reason 1 and 2 above.

It doesn't, especially with cities like Rizhao it only makes the US look, well, silly.

It hasn't hurt enough at the pump yet - it will.

At 25% to China's 9% it is still the top consumer of annual world energy and TOP consumer of ME oil.

While I agree with this assessment, however, China does not have the luxury of time and small populace size that western nations enjoyed the last 150 years.

It hasn't hurt enough at the pump.

Lack of foresight, only focused on the short term remedies - ie Gas tax holiday, opening up offshore drilling, ect.

While it is the fact of what happened, however, that does not validate the rational for democratic polity.
True it could've taken longer, however democratic polity may have also reigned in on corruption substantially allowing for even more profound leaps and bounds in economic development but in a more conservationally minded manner. WHo knows though, as it didn't happen one can only judge on what the facts are. And the facts agree with your assessment of rapid economic changes via the control of intellectual elitists.

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Orion

I was going to write a full reply but I pretty much agree with everything you said. The future will be interesting indeed.

American

A billion and a half people can produce a lot of gas.

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