China demolishes mosque for not supporting Olympics: group

ludahai · 07-12-08, 07:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orius

Yeah, the pollution there is bad. When I was there a year ago, my lungs actually hurt by the end of the day. There are days when you can't even go outside because prolonged exposure burns your nose and eyes (mostly the sulfur dioxide does this). It's pretty bad.

In fairness though, China is working on the 3 Gorges Dam project which will substitute a lot of coal power for clean energy, and it has designs on nuclear energy. Until then though, the cities are going to be a polluted mess. I remember a few years ago, after the UN slammed China for its environmental practices, China did an internal audit of the country's environmental index. They had a particular prediction, but by the end of the project the findings were something like 250% higher than they expected. In utter embarrassment, they scrapped the census project, and immediately put money into the relevant ministries to do monitoring and some cleanup projects.

The environment is on everyone's mind in China right now, and it's an issue that has the longterm potential to topple the government. People won't care about prosperity if they are choking on it.

But they are still putting into service an average of one coal-fired power plant EVERY WEEK.

A friend of mine living in Beijing just came to Taiwan to visit friends and family and told me that the pollution is still horrible. Not to mention that August in Beijing is just horridly hot (it will make Hotlanta feel cool on some days).

Olympics, in Beijing, in August? Horrible idea. Should have gone to Toronto.

ludahai · 07-12-08, 07:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orius

More people pointing the finger at them for doing the same thing we were doing 100 years ago, and to some extent are still doing. If we started industrializing when our population was 1.1 billion, we'd be in the exact same predicament. Now that mostly everyone in our side of the world is fed and literate, not to mention living in the lap of luxury uncompared to anywhere else, we have the convenience of defending the environment. China is still struggling to provide basic needs for its huge population.

Instead of hoping for it to be embarrassed, you should be hoping for it do develop ways to clean up the dangerous environmental mess it has created. I'm glad that the Olympics are there. It has created a lot more awareness of China's environmental problems, so maybe now more help will come China's way in the form of beneficial investment.

The difference is, now we know far more about the long-term damage that is caused by this pollution than we did 100-200 years ago. Still, even then, the west was not producing near the pollution that China is, even on a per capita basis.

The whole world needs to work on the problem, but unlike most Western countries which are slowing the growth of emmissions (or in a few cases, reducing them), with China, the emissions are going full steam ahead.

jfuh · 07-12-08, 10:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orius

More people pointing the finger at them for doing the same thing we were doing 100 years ago, and to some extent are still doing. If we started industrializing when our population was 1.1 billion, we'd be in the exact same predicament. Now that mostly everyone in our side of the world is fed and literate, not to mention living in the lap of luxury uncompared to anywhere else, we have the convenience of defending the environment. China is still struggling to provide basic needs for its huge population.

Instead of hoping for it to be embarrassed, you should be hoping for it do develop ways to clean up the dangerous environmental mess it has created. I'm glad that the Olympics are there. It has created a lot more awareness of China's environmental problems, so maybe now more help will come China's way in the form of beneficial investment.

Finally I get to engage you, fortunately or unfortunately depending on how you look at it, we've been on the same side and I quite like the style which you present here - very open and to the facts.

So here's my first argument with you.
Indeed a hundred years ago we were exactly the same if not far far worse than China today in terms of pollution.
The big problem with that however is the following:
1) it's not a hundred years ago hence:
i) they have the technological ability to not needing to use the same dirty methods of energy and goods manufacturing that modern industrialized nations went through before - they can skip over all that and jump straight to the clean techs.
ii) people then didn't know of the many dangers of pollution and the severe side effects. the mentality then was that resources were essentially limitless. That is not the mentality of today in China and industrialized nations. IOW they know that pollution is going to be a severe problem.

2) China has pollution regulation laws that are up to standard for various levels and concentrations with the western world but the governing body is so corrupt that they don't properly enforce their own laws.

I more than understand the need for the political power of China to maintain a strong growing economy in order to maintain stability and it's national interests internationally. However at the sacrifice of it's environment is too high a price to pay - in particular with 1.3billion populous. The only way that I can see in which the central government would take environmental concerns very seriously is to be thoroughly embarassed this summer.

jfuh · 07-12-08, 10:55 PM

Before you go on about apologetics let me first say I agree, it is a serious problem. that said.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ludahai

The difference is, now we know far more about the long-term damage that is caused by this pollution than we did 100-200 years ago. Still, even then, the west was not producing near the pollution that China is, even on a per capita basis.

100, 200 years ago there was no such thing as a global economy as there is today. China has essentially become the manufacturing hub of all industrialized nations. IOW, the pollution taht other nations once produced for manufacturing are now outsourced to China.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ludahai

The whole world needs to work on the problem, but unlike most Western countries which are slowing the growth of emmissions (or in a few cases, reducing them), with China, the emissions are going full steam ahead.

As are the emissions of Australia, the US and India at a clip that closely rivals that of China without all the Made in India tags.

Orion · 07-13-08, 12:29 AM

jfuh, I don't really disagree with you, so there is no real engagement here

However, I will say that China is already embarrassed, and it was well before Olympics for Beijing were even announced. It has exceeded the UN's safe pollution index for decades now, and is slammed for it every year at UN forums. China looking bad for its environmental issues is nothing new. The Beijing Olympics are just the cherry on the polluted crap pile.

I also agree that China should be converting to greener technology, which is what it is doing. China is routinely accused of abusing the environment, so it says, "Okay, we'll build the dam." Then the damn gets built, necessarily displacing millions of people in the process, forming an even larger migrant worker population, and the West turns around and says shame on you. The problem with a population so large is two-fold... one, you need to be constantly creating new energy sources daily, of which coal is the cheapest but dirtiest; two, any major project you undertake involves the displacement of millions of people. It's kind of a lose-lose situation, especially when you have Western observers harking down your throat.

Greener technology is expensive, and China is already borrowing money for its megaprojects like the Three Gorges Dam. I would argue that if the West is so worried about China's environment, then it should contribute interest-free money and expertise to helping to clean up the environment, since we, after all, are a major contributing factor to its pollution by proxy of our economic exploitation of their country. As if that's going to happen though.

China's argument is often, "You polluted on your way to industrialization. We'll worry about the environment more once our people are fed." India is taking a similar approach. Of course, we can turn around and say, "Well, the knowledge of that damage exists now, whereas before no one knew, so let's do it differently this time." Still, the bottom line is money, both from the perspective that coal is more cost effective (in the short term anyway, when factoring in the environment), and also it costs money to implement green technology.

I also would argue that the West is not making great strides in helping the environment. The U.S. never signed the Kyoto Protocol, Canada recently backed out of it, we only really shut down the majority of our coal generators in the past decade, and the G8 has agreed to a far-fetched goal of 2050 for curbing pollution. By 2050, the worlds oil will be depleted anyway, so what the hell is the point?

I think China is well aware of its situation... so pointing the finger is really just

Orion · 07-13-08, 12:31 AM

I forgot to add...

China already burns more coal than the U.S. and Europe combined. If China had the same rights we had, including rights to social welfare, the atmosphere of the Earth would be black. There are simply too many people.

jfuh · 07-13-08, 02:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orius

jfuh, I don't really disagree with you, so there is no real engagement here

However, I will say that China is already embarrassed, and it was well before Olympics for Beijing were even announced. It has exceeded the UN's safe pollution index for decades now, and is slammed for it every year at UN forums. China looking bad for its environmental issues is nothing new. The Beijing Olympics are just the cherry on the polluted crap pile.

I also agree that China should be converting to greener technology, which is what it is doing. China is routinely accused of abusing the environment, so it says, "Okay, we'll build the dam." Then the damn gets built, necessarily displacing millions of people in the process, forming an even larger migrant worker population, and the West turns around and says shame on you. The problem with a population so large is two-fold... one, you need to be constantly creating new energy sources daily, of which coal is the cheapest but dirtiest; two, any major project you undertake involves the displacement of millions of people. It's kind of a lose-lose situation, especially when you have Western observers harking down your throat.

Greener technology is expensive, and China is already borrowing money for its megaprojects like the Three Gorges Dam. I would argue that if the West is so worried about China's environment, then it should contribute interest-free money and expertise to helping to clean up the environment, since we, after all, are a major contributing factor to its pollution by proxy of our economic exploitation of their country. As if that's going to happen though.

On principle the three gorges damn is perhaps the WORST possible thing China has done. Allow me to elaborate.
The same electrical power generation could've been acheived by the same means through additional smaller damns rather than one super omega super damn.
The control of the Yangtze river would've been far more securily achieved through the construction of multiple smaller damns as well.
While I can deffinetely appreciate the engineering marvel and triumph of the damn, it was nevertheless a relic of the old communist party leaders in particular the SOB Li Peng. So I have a HUGE quell with the entire project itself. One accident with the damn and hundreds of millions of lives are at risk. If one contractor wasn't too honest and decided to use materials cheaply and take the kick back for themselves one could see how the damn could lead to a gargantuane catastrophe just waiting to happen.

However on the note of "China is taking steps". I present this.
China's Solar-Powered City
http://www.metaefficient.com/renewab...y-rizhao.htmlI know of no other city in the world that is like this. I expected something like this in the US, Japan or some other 1st world nation, not China. Seriously embarrasses industrialized nation that China of all nations has a city of such.
I do hope that this is the face of things to come.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orius

China's argument is often, "You polluted on your way to industrialization. We'll worry about the environment more once our people are fed." India is taking a similar approach. Of course, we can turn around and say, "Well, the knowledge of that damage exists now, whereas before no one knew, so let's do it differently this time." Still, the bottom line is money, both from the perspective that coal is more cost effective (in the short term anyway, when factoring in the environment), and also it costs money to implement green technology.

I also would argue that the West is not making great strides in helping the environment. The U.S. never signed the Kyoto Protocol, Canada recently backed out of it, we only really shut down the majority of our coal generators in the past decade, and the G8 has agreed to a far-fetched goal of 2050 for curbing pollution. By 2050, the worlds oil will be depleted anyway, so what the hell is the point?

I think China is well aware of its situation... so pointing the finger is really just

Exactly. While on principle I agree with Kyoto, however the devil is in the details. Developing countries should not be exempt. The atmosphere doesn't cut at borders. But bottom line is on money.
The US is a disposable based economy. Everything has to be disposable or else who'd buy anything new if everything was high quality. To have a disposable economy the energy to manufacture must be cheap.
All the more I think that high oil prices world wide are a blessing in disguise.
I can't wait for when nations world wide are no longer reliant on oil -> point finger at house of saud or Arab Emerits

jfuh · 07-13-08, 02:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orius

I forgot to add...

China already burns more coal than the U.S. and Europe combined. If China had the same rights we had, including rights to social welfare, the atmosphere of the Earth would be black. There are simply too many people.

Same rights? do elaborate

ludahai · 07-13-08, 04:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jfuh

Before you go on about apologetics let me first say I agree, it is a serious problem. that said.
100, 200 years ago there was no such thing as a global economy as there is today. China has essentially become the manufacturing hub of all industrialized nations. IOW, the pollution taht other nations once produced for manufacturing are now outsourced to China.

One of the several reasons that it has been outsourced to CHina by corporations is that China has very lax enforcement of environmental regulations - which you pointed out in the previous post. It doesn't absolve China of its responsibilities in the area. The fact is that it still has a fraction of the GDP the US has, yet it probably already surpasses the US in terms of greenhouse gasses emmitted.

Quote:

As are the emissions of Australia, the US and India at a clip that closely rivals that of China without all the Made in India tags.

US and Australia GROWTH in emissions is no where near that of China's. India's probably is closely behind China's. This is why both China and India (along with Brazil and Russia) MUST be included in a comprehensive regime for the reduction of CO2 emissions worldwide.

Reverend_Hellh0und · 07-13-08, 11:37 AM

china is the number one polluter. period.

American Thinker Blog: Congrats to China: New #1 Emitter of Greenhouse Gasses

07-13-08, 12:29 AM	#105
Orion Via Negativa Join Date: Jun 2008 Last Seen: Today 03:33 AM Location: Canada Posts: 5,022 Thanks: 1,411 Thanked 2,081 Times in 1,267 Posts Gender:	Re: China demolishes mosque for not supporting Olympics: group jfuh, I don't really disagree with you, so there is no real engagement here However, I will say that China is already embarrassed, and it was well before Olympics for Beijing were even announced. It has exceeded the UN's safe pollution index for decades now, and is slammed for it every year at UN forums. China looking bad for its environmental issues is nothing new. The Beijing Olympics are just the cherry on the polluted crap pile. I also agree that China should be converting to greener technology, which is what it is doing. China is routinely accused of abusing the environment, so it says, "Okay, we'll build the dam." Then the damn gets built, necessarily displacing millions of people in the process, forming an even larger migrant worker population, and the West turns around and says shame on you. The problem with a population so large is two-fold... one, you need to be constantly creating new energy sources daily, of which coal is the cheapest but dirtiest; two, any major project you undertake involves the displacement of millions of people. It's kind of a lose-lose situation, especially when you have Western observers harking down your throat. Greener technology is expensive, and China is already borrowing money for its megaprojects like the Three Gorges Dam. I would argue that if the West is so worried about China's environment, then it should contribute interest-free money and expertise to helping to clean up the environment, since we, after all, are a major contributing factor to its pollution by proxy of our economic exploitation of their country. As if that's going to happen though. China's argument is often, "You polluted on your way to industrialization. We'll worry about the environment more once our people are fed." India is taking a similar approach. Of course, we can turn around and say, "Well, the knowledge of that damage exists now, whereas before no one knew, so let's do it differently this time." Still, the bottom line is money, both from the perspective that coal is more cost effective (in the short term anyway, when factoring in the environment), and also it costs money to implement green technology. I also would argue that the West is not making great strides in helping the environment. The U.S. never signed the Kyoto Protocol, Canada recently backed out of it, we only really shut down the majority of our coal generators in the past decade, and the G8 has agreed to a far-fetched goal of 2050 for curbing pollution. By 2050, the worlds oil will be depleted anyway, so what the hell is the point? I think China is well aware of its situation... so pointing the finger is really just

07-13-08, 12:31 AM	#106
Orion Via Negativa Join Date: Jun 2008 Last Seen: Today 03:33 AM Location: Canada Posts: 5,022 Thanks: 1,411 Thanked 2,081 Times in 1,267 Posts Gender:	Re: China demolishes mosque for not supporting Olympics: group I forgot to add... China already burns more coal than the U.S. and Europe combined. If China had the same rights we had, including rights to social welfare, the atmosphere of the Earth would be black. There are simply too many people.

07-13-08, 11:37 AM	#110
Reverend_Hellh0und Bombastic Grandiloquence The Bartender Join Date: Sep 2007 Last Seen: Today 01:33 PM Location: You're Awesome! Posts: 33,569 Thanks: 6,027 Thanked 7,484 Times in 4,616 Posts Lean: Libertarian Gender: Total Awards: 3	Re: China demolishes mosque for not supporting Olympics: group china is the number one polluter. period. American Thinker Blog: Congrats to China: New #1 Emitter of Greenhouse Gasses
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