galenrox

Where did I say he was there to discuss his plan? Can you find a quote?

He was gearing up for a Presidential run.
Once again, it takes a pretty short memory to see his criticism of Rumsfeld as an act of political opportunism.
"Blame the victim" is worthless rhetoric. Do you dispute that reality?
And yes, I don't think it takes an engineering degree to figure out how to pick up all the **** in your yard (but then again you'd think it wouldn't require an engineering degree to figure out it's a bad idea to live in a city beneath sea level that is on a hurricane prone coast line).

You have political ambitions, to aid Obama in his election. You're welcome.
It's not helping them. No one benefits from treating adults like children, and the legislation that we've seen has been nothing more than trying to force adults back into the womb based on the assumption that because you're poor you're ****ing stupid (which is something I refuse to accept in my own analysis). You get more of what you subsidize, and when you subsidize wasting your life you're destroying the lives of those who will now waste their lives as a product of the subsidy.

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independent_thinker2002

Post #61.

No, that was a slam dunk.

Way to simplify the situation. The problem with New Orleans is a little deeper than trash in the yards.

So if I don't abandon my family and clean up yards in New Orleans I am not helping Obama?

Not everyone on welfare is wasting their life. I know you don't pity the poor and unfortunate. I know that people abuse the system. Should we eliminate defense spending because that gets abused? 500 dollar hammers and 100 dollar toilet seats? I think you focus on the abuse and deny the people that truly need help. A good portion of the people declaring bankruptcy these days are due to hospital bills and they even had insurance.

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galenrox

Clearly I misspoke. I don't think he has a plan for New Orleans, nor do I think anybody else does.


How so? Do you remember 2004 at all? For doing that he got asked to be the Democratic Vice Presidential candidate (and I know you're an outsider to the Republican party, so I'll let you in on a secret, getting offered the Dem VP slot is not endearing to us). So please, do tell how it was an act of political expediency.

You're right, it's **** in the yards and a prevailing attitude of helpless dependency that has been thrust upon the poor by symbolic gestures of legislators trying to make people like you think they care about the people of New Orleans.
Is that anything close to what I said? I said you're playing politics with New Orleans.
If money is spent inefficiently to the end of defense the end we receive is still something good, defense, it just costs more. If money is spent inefficiently on welfare then nothing good is accomplished by any standard, as any good accomplished by helping the genuinely helpless is outweighed by the number of people who have a culture of dependence thrust upon them, leading them to waste their lives.

You're 100% wrong about saying I don't pity the poor and unfortunate, I'm quite confident I'm more concerned with their wellbeing then you are (as I am not constrained by a need for people who don't know what they're talking about to think I care about the poor and unfortunate). It's ****ing sickening to see human beings live like that. I don't adhere to the racist beliefs that black people are less capable of succeeding in a system of economic freedom, I don't adhere to what Bush articulated (with the assistance of a skilled speech writer) as the soft bigotry of low expectations. I want them to succeed, and I recognize that they can, which distinguishes my position from yours.

independent_thinker2002

I agree with you 100%.

Why is that not endearing to you? You would have had a tiebreaking vote in the Senate if he would have been elected. I understand party unity is extremely important to your party. I would argue that is why Bush didn't find his veto pen until 2007.

People haven't come back to those homes and neighborhoods. You live in Chicago. You should know it takes the government to reclaim and rebuild neighborhoods.

Sorry, I misunderstood you. I expect someone to have a plan. If Obama goes to New Orleans and says "never again will this happen" and he doesn't have a plan I expect you will jump on it.

So what about the genuinely helpless? We can agree on reform. I don't think the system is perfect. We can't say, "Sorry helpless people, people abused the system so you are screwed."

Black people aren't the only ones on welfare. I don't know why you inject race into this. If you are more concerned about the poor and unfortunate than me, what do you propose to do to help them? Remember, you aren't constrained here.

I would also add that one extended hospital stay insures that you cannot succeed. Adjusted for inflation, people make $1000 less a year than they did 8 years ago. I am not sure that people can succeed in all situations. We do differ on that. In spite of the people that abuse the system, we can't let those who don't suffer. People with poor education and low intelligence can't make it on minimum wage or next to it. I think it's unfair to try to paint me as not recognizing that people can succeed. Sure many can, but are lazy or playing into a victimhood mentality. But not all can. Your words focus on the abuse and not the helpless. Forgive me if I don't sense your concern as your words are all I have to go by.

galenrox

You should learn to repeat this pattern and agree with me 100% on everything.
To me personally it is (in a cetaris paribus sense), but I was not a Republican in 2004 for a reason. It wasn't until late 2005 or so that it became acceptable for mainstream Republicans to criticize Bush and the present course. I'm sure you remember this.
You think that me living in Chicago is going to increase my faith in the government's ability to manage a society? We have some of the most oppressive gun control laws in the country, 20 kids have been murdered this year, and what's Mayor Daley's response? We don't have enough gun control! Handguns are illegal, you cannot legally have any gun outside of its case (people frequently go to jail over having a legally owned rifle in their trunks for lack of a case), you cannot have a gun in your house that is not under lock and key, and the problem is supposedly a LACK of gun control? Poor neighborhoods around here are mired in filth despite our astronomical taxes which largely go to paying the mob to not kill our elected officials!
Neighborhoods are reclaimed by people, not government.
If he says "never again will this happen" I can guarantee he still won't have a plan, in the sense that he won't have an approach that will actually deal with the root problems (as this is admitted in the suggestion that the Federal government can address the root problems).
The crippled. The mentally retarded. That's it.
I'm injecting race into the issues of Katrina, are you kidding me? Did you see the videos, because I might not be a statistician but I can notice basic patterns like damn near everyone who was up **** creek was black. And I live in Chicago where it's reaffirmed that our system is deliberately forcing infancy upon black adults by telling them that there's no point in growing up, we'll support you if you don't and the American dream is bull****. What the **** do you expect?

If someone is able bodied and of able mind (meaning the brain functions properly) it is impossible to consider them genuinely helpless.

independent_thinker2002

What about the children of irresponsible parents? What about the widowed? What about single parents?

What you know about Katrina is through the media's eye. I am sure there were plenty of other races screwed too. Your neighborhood in Chicago is that way, but there are plenty of people of other races with the same issue, in Chicago and downstate. Now, you may say that it is disproportionately a black issue and that is where racial history and systemic injustice come into play.

Yes, unless they have a felony. Then they can't make a decent living. Yes, that is their fault, but their family suffers for it.

galenrox

The children of irresponsible parents are still 100% capable of making something of themselves and aren't going to do any better by you telling them that they aren't. Are the widowed able bodied and of able mind? What exactly makes you think single mothers aren't of able body and able mind?
I'm sure there are too, but in terms of proportion of victims as compared to proportion of the general population it's impossible to ignore the statistical significance of the amount of African Americans who stuck around. It's obviously a poor thing instead of a black thing, but it's like any poverty issue, it's made a race issue as long as African Americans are disproportionately impoverished.
That's not true, I've worked with ex-felons before, and I saw my paychecks and knew they were getting the same wage and got more hours than me. I'm all about providing inroads for ex-felons and anyone else who's willing to work to earn a living, but you're not going to convince me that we should be supporting the able bodied and able-minded.

independent_thinker2002

Until those children are able to make something of themselves, they shouldn't suffer. I never said that they couldn't make something of themselves. But until that time state assistance makes sure that they are educated, fed, and healthy. That is done through welfare.

Yes, which comes down to why are they disproportionately impoverished.

Many ex-felons lie about their status as a felon because they have to. They are a background check away from starting over. I don't necessarily feel bad for them, but their family suffers too. That is where I aim my pity. Your anecdotal evidence may be true, but it's irrelevant when we look at the bigger picture.

galenrox

Are you sending the checks to the kids? Because if the parents are too irresponsible to feed, clothe, and house the kids then sending a welfare check to that purpose seems to be at best an exercise in futility.

There are lots of reasons why they are disproportionately impoverished if you want to get into a broader historical discussion, but I think the more pertinent question is why are they STILL disproportionately impoverished. Still a lot of answers, but much more valuable in terms of actually solving the problem.

For example, the effect of being told from the point of being a young child that the American dream is bull****, that no matter what you do it's someone else's fault (and thusly out of your hands). Who the hell is going to work if they believe that from a young age?
That's the main problem. People can accomplish anything they set their mind to, but no one will set their mind towards a goal they've been convinced can't be accomplished. People can rise up from having a ****ty family, or a ****ty school, or delinquent friends, but they can't rise up from mental slavery. People who believe they're stuck where they are and have no control no matter what they do are worse of than someone stitching soccer balls in China who genuinely believes that he can make his life better.
No its not. There is work for ex-felons, there are programs for ex-felons, both in and outside of prison. There is no shortage of resources available to ex-felons who genuinely want to turn their lives around. I pity their families insofar as they've made decisions in their lives that lead to them being dependent upon someone no sane person would choose to make one's well being dependent upon, cause there's nothing anyone can do to help you at that point.