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Archives Hamas Says 'No' to Peace with Israel; As further evidence that Hamas did not agree to live in peace with Israel, as President Carter had mistakenly claimed, ...

 
 
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Old 05-14-08, 10:34 AM   #21 (permalink)
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Thread Starter Re: Hamas Says 'No' to Peace with Israel

As further evidence that Hamas did not agree to live in peace with Israel, as President Carter had mistakenly claimed, today's edition of the Jerusalem Post reported:

Hamas leader Mahmoud Zahar said Wednesday that a Palestinian state will be established on all of the land of Palestine and not only on parts of it, and that it will include "Jaffa, Lod and Haifa."

Zahar also reiterated Hamas' unwillingness to recognize the State of Israel and said that the group "will continue to persecute the Zionists wherever they are...
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Old 05-14-08, 04:03 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Re: Hamas Says 'No' to Peace with Israel

I agree with Hamas that Israel should never be recognized so long that the criminal occupation does not end. Why should the victims of occupation and ethnic cleansing legitimize their oppressor?

A truce and the establishment of a preliminary palestinian state withiin the 67 borders is a good first step to peace. The return and compensation of refugees will be the next step to a final peace ratified by both peoples through a referendum.

The ball is in Israel's court. Hamas should continue to build up the resistance and protect the people of gaza.
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Old 05-14-08, 04:31 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Thread Starter Re: Hamas Says 'No' to Peace with Israel

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jenin View Post
...Why should the victims of occupation and ethnic cleansing legitimize their oppressor?
Israel has been the repeated victim of aggression since the time it was re-established, but has been able to fight off would-be oppressors. Israel, like any other sovereign state, has an inherent right of self-defense.

Moreover, Israel's government should avoid decisions that legitimize the Hamas terrorist group. Hamas knows exactly what it must do per the Madrid Quartet's terms if it is to play a role in any kind of peace framework. To date, Hamas has rejected those terms.

Quote:
A truce and the establishment of a preliminary palestinian state withiin the 67 borders is a good first step to peace.
Israel is not required to adopt the 1967 borders. Those borders were based on temporary armistice lines. The final boundaries will be derived out of negotiations. The pre-1967 war boundaries will guide decisionmaking, but those boundaries will not become the permanent borders given Israel's right to "secure" boundaries. Some adjustments will be necessary.

Quote:
The return and compensation of refugees will be the next step to a final peace ratified by both peoples through a referendum.
The principle of compensation of refugees will likely be non-controversial. The amount will be a different matter. Given present economic realities, it is plausible that the total fund could amount to less than the $30 billion that had been stipulated in the Clinton parameters that Yasser Arafat refused to accept.

The refugees will "return" to the region in general, but only in the areas that will comprise the new Palestinian state. They will not move to Israel.

Requiring that Israel admit the Palestinian refugees and all of their descendants would be a deal-breaker. The demographic change would transform Israel into a Jewish minority state and effectively allow the Palestinians to bring an end to Israel's existence. That development would be at odds with the UN's original intent in devising the partition plan for the region. Furthermore, no state can reasonably be expected to consent to its own demise. Israel will be no exception.
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Old 05-15-08, 10:00 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Re: Hamas Says 'No' to Peace with Israel

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joby View Post
This is what Israel is scared of.
More carterite rhetoric.
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Old 05-15-08, 10:01 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Re: Hamas Says 'No' to Peace with Israel

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jenin View Post
I agree with Hamas that Israel should never be recognized so long that the criminal occupation does not end. Why should the victims of occupation and ethnic cleansing legitimize their oppressor?

A truce and the establishment of a preliminary palestinian state withiin the 67 borders is a good first step to peace. The return and compensation of refugees will be the next step to a final peace ratified by both peoples through a referendum.

The ball is in Israel's court. Hamas should continue to build up the resistance and protect the people of gaza.

And we all agree that you're, at best, a blanket apologist, at worst a card-carrying member of Hamas.



Hamas isn't protecting the people of Gaza -- it is slowly draining the life from them. You cand follow your propganda and islam-o-nazism indoctrination all you want; however, you are now and will always be wrong.

Hamas = terrorist group

Figure it out and grow beyond the lies you've been told.

Last edited by Vader : 05-15-08 at 10:03 PM.
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Old 05-15-08, 11:42 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Re: Hamas Says 'No' to Peace with Israel

Quote:
Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
Today, Haaretz reported "Former U.S. President Jimmy Carter said on Monday that Hamas is prepared to accept the right of Israel to 'live in peace' within 1967 borders. He also said the Islamist group would willing to accept a peace deal initiated by Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas if it were favored in a national referendum."

However, if one reads through the article one finds the proverbial "fine print" that offers a material detail. The article continues, "Abu Zuhri [Sami Abu Zuhri, a senior Hamas leader] also noted that Hamas, which refuses to recognize Israel, would regard any future Palestinian state in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, territories Israel captured in the 1967 Six Day War, as 'transitional'." In other words, what President Carter hailed as a breakthrough would merely constitute a "transitional" situation according to Hamas. It would not represent a permanent peace.

If anything, the "transitional" situation would merely constitute one of the severe preconditions Hamas attempted to impose on Israel as outlined in an op-ed written by Mahmoud al-Zahar, a co-founder of Hamas (http://www.debatepolitics.com/middle...post1057589301).

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Old 05-16-08, 05:50 AM   #27 (permalink)
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Re: Hamas Says 'No' to Peace with Israel

Quote:
Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
[left]

Israel has been the repeated victim of aggression since the time it was re-established, but has been able to fight off would-be oppressors. Israel, like any other sovereign state, has an inherent right of self-defense.
Victim of agression, no. Participant in a war for land, yes.

Quote:
Moreover, Israel's government should avoid decisions that legitimize the Hamas terrorist group. Hamas knows exactly what it must do per the Madrid Quartet's terms if it is to play a role in any kind of peace framework. To date, Hamas has rejected those terms.
Hamas doesnt have to accept the quartets terms. Nor should it.



Quote:
Israel is not required to adopt the 1967 borders. Those borders were based on temporary armistice lines. The final boundaries will be derived out of negotiations. The pre-1967 war boundaries will guide decisionmaking, but those boundaries will not become the permanent borders given Israel's right to "secure" boundaries. Some adjustments will be necessary.
No one has ever required Israel to do anything. And to date still no one is required to do anything.



Quote:
The principle of compensation of refugees will likely be non-controversial. The amount will be a different matter. Given present economic realities, it is plausible that the total fund could amount to less than the $30 billion that had been stipulated in the Clinton parameters that Yasser Arafat refused to accept.

The refugees will "return" to the region in general, but only in the areas that will comprise the new Palestinian state. They will not move to Israel.

Requiring that Israel admit the Palestinian refugees and all of their descendants would be a deal-breaker. The demographic change would transform Israel into a Jewish minority state and effectively allow the Palestinians to bring an end to Israel's existence. That development would be at odds with the UN's original intent in devising the partition plan for the region. Furthermore, no state can reasonably be expected to consent to its own demise. Israel will be no exception.
Yes. Probably the refugee issue will be easy to resolve. But if Israel cant even admit its role in all this itll just be harder and harder.

By the way, if Israel is a pluralistic state, giving equal rights and treatment to all its citizens no matter their religion or ethnicity then what is the problem with moving hundreds of thousands of refugees back in to Israel?

After all, as a democratic pluralist state it would make no difference!

Of course, if Israel is not actually a pluralist state but is in fact a Jewish state then it would make alot of difference!
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Old 05-16-08, 06:00 AM   #28 (permalink)
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Re: Hamas Says 'No' to Peace with Israel

But lets continue the debate. Here for you, is what Hamas actually says;


Hamas' stand

An official of the movement describes its goals for all of Palestine.

07.10.2007 | The Los Angeles Times
By Mousa Abu Marzook

MOUSA ABU MARZOOK is the deputy of the political bureau of Hamas, the Islamic Resistance Movement.

Damascus, Syria -- HAMAS' RESCUE of a BBC journalist from his captors in Gaza last week was surely cause for rejoicing. But I want to be clear about one thing: We did not deliver up Alan Johnston as some obsequious boon to Western powers.

It was done as part of our effort to secure Gaza from the lawlessness of militias and violence, no matter what the source. Gaza will be calm and under the rule of law -- a place where all journalists, foreigners and guests of the Palestinian people will be treated with dignity. Hamas has never supported attacks on Westerners, as even our harshest critics will concede; our struggle has always been focused on the occupier and our legal resistance to it -- a right of occupied people that is explicitly supported by the Fourth Geneva Convention.

Yet our movement is continually linked by President Bush and Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert to ideologies that they know full well we do not follow, such as the agenda of Al Qaeda and its adherents. But we are not part of a broader war. Our resistance struggle is no one's proxy, although we welcome the support of people everywhere for justice in Palestine.

The American efforts to negate the will of the Palestinian electorate by destroying our fledgling government have not succeeded -- rather, the U.S.-assisted Fatah coup has only multiplied the problems of Washington's "two-state solution."

Mr. Bush has for the moment found a pliant friend in Abu Mazen, a "moderate" in the American view but one who cannot seriously expect to command confidence in the streets of Gaza or the West Bank after having taken American arms and Israeli support to depose the elected government by force. We deplore the current prognosticating over "Fatah-land" versus "Hamastan." In the end, there can be only one Palestinian state.

But what of the characterization by the West of our movement as beyond the pale of civilized discourse? Our "militant" stance cannot by itself be the disqualifying factor, as many armed struggles have historically resulted in a place at the table of nations. Nor can any deny the reasonableness of our fight against the occupation and the right of Palestinians to have dignity, justice and self-rule.

Yet in my many years of keeping an open mind to all sides of the Palestine question -- including those I spent in an American prison, awaiting Israeli "justice" -- I am forever asked to concede the recognition of Israel's putative "right to exist" as a necessary precondition to discussing grievances, and to renounce positions found in the Islamic Resistance Movement's charter of 1988, an essentially revolutionary document born of the intolerable conditions under occupation more than 20 years ago.

The sticking point of "recognition" has been used as a litmus test to judge Palestinians. Yet as I have said before, a state may have a right to exist, but not absolutely at the expense of other states, or more important, at the expense of millions of human individuals and their rights to justice. Why should anyone concede Israel's "right" to exist, when it has never even acknowledged the foundational crimes of murder and ethnic cleansing by means of which Israel took our towns and villages, our farms and orchards, and made us a nation of refugees?

Why should any Palestinian "recognize" the monstrous crime carried out by Israel's founders and continued by its deformed modern apartheid state, while he or she lives 10 to a room in a cinderblock, tin-roof United Nations hut? These are not abstract questions, and it is not rejectionist simply because we have refused to abandon the victims of 1948 and their descendants.

As for the 1988 charter, if every state or movement were to be judged solely by its foundational, revolutionary documents or the ideas of its progenitors, there would be a good deal to answer for on all sides. The American Declaration of Independence, with its self-evident truth of equality, simply did not countenance (at least, not in the minds of most of its illustrious signatories) any such status for the 700,000 African slaves at that time; nor did the Constitution avoid codifying slavery as an institution, counting "other persons" as three-fifths of a man. Israel, which has never formally adopted a constitution of its own but rather operates through the slow accretion of Basic Laws, declares itself explicitly to be a state for the Jews, conferring privileged status based on faith in a land where millions of occupants are Arabs, Muslims and Christians.

The writings of Israel's "founders" -- from Herzl to Jabotinsky to Ben Gurion -- make repeated calls for the destruction of Palestine's non-Jewish inhabitants: "We must expel the Arabs and take their places." A number of political parties today control blocs in the Israeli Knesset, while advocating for the expulsion of Arab citizens from Israel and the rest of Palestine, envisioning a single Jewish state from the Jordan to the sea. Yet I hear no clamor in the international community for Israel to repudiate these words as a necessary precondition for any discourse whatsoever. The double standard, as always, is in effect for Palestinians.

I, for one, do not trouble myself over "recognizing" Israel's right to exist -- this is not, after all, an epistemological problem; Israel does exist, as any Rafah boy in a hospital bed, with IDF shrapnel in his torso, can tell you. This dance of mutual rejection is a mere distraction when so many are dying or have lived as prisoners for two generations in refugee camps. As I write these words, Israeli forays into Gaza have killed another 15 people, including a child. Who but a Jacobin dares to discuss the "rights" of nations in the face of such relentless state violence against an occupied population?

I look forward to the day when Israel can say to me, and millions of other Palestinians: "Here, here is your family's house by the sea, here are your lemon trees, the olive grove your father tended: Come home and be whole again." Then we can speak of a future together.

Norman G. Finkelstein
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Old 05-16-08, 07:16 AM   #29 (permalink)
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Thread Starter Re: Hamas Says 'No' to Peace with Israel

Key point from the op-ed:

Quote:
I look forward to the day when Israel can say to me, and millions of other Palestinians: "Here, here is your family's house by the sea, here are your lemon trees, the olive grove your father tended: Come home and be whole again." Then we can speak of a future together.
This would indicate that Israel would admit all Palestinian refugees and all their descendants. Then, Israel would cease to be a Jewish majority state. Once that is achieved, the democratic process could be exploited to bring about Israel's political extinction. Those are the ugly terms of Mr. Marzook's seemingly soothing message.
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Old 05-16-08, 07:20 AM   #30 (permalink)
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Thread Starter Re: Hamas Says 'No' to Peace with Israel

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Victim of agression, no. Participant in a war for land, yes.
Israel was attacked in 1948. Israel was illegally blockaded in 1956 and 1967 and had a right of self-defense to break out of attempts to strangle it. Israel was attacked in 1973.

Had the UN responded to break the illegal 1967 blockade, one would not be discussing territories that were captured in that war today. Instead, the UN ignored Israel's plight.

In all of these cases, Israel was the victim of aggression. That Israel successfully fought back does not change the reality that Israel was confronted with aggression.
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