Rogue

An average poster? Hardly. Many will have noticed your blatantly obvious dishonest avoidance of discussing anything that doesn't further your agenda. Have you been reigned in by your employers of illegals for being totally ineffective?

obvious Child

And you and the other rabid anti-immigration folks generally ignore all other factors that undermine your arguments.

People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

The two main Factors that are responsible:
1) Opportunity differentials between the US and Mexico (this also applies to virtually any two countries as well)
2) Wage differentials between the US and Mexico (this also applies to virtually any two countries as well)

You apparently don't realize that Mexico is currently having its own illegal immigration from other central American and South American countries. Europe has this problem as well with other countries. If there is a large differential in opportunities and wages between two countries, there will be illegal immigration.

jamesrage

The only thing that proves is that we must crack down harder on the employers who hire illegals

__________________

Rogue

I guess that makes you a RABID pro illegal then, doesn't it? So the employers of illegals recalled Void for being ineffective and brought in their big gun activist, huh? I've been saying that the employers of illegals are mostly responsible for the illegal Mexican invasion because they have let it be known to the illegals that the employers of illegals will hire the illegals if they will come. Guess what. The employers of illegals did hire the illegals that came. As you pointed out the wage and opportunity differentials for some of these illegals was the deciding factor for the illegals coming, knowing that they would be hired by these employers of illegals if they came. As I've said many times, the only way to stop the illegal Mexican invasion is to force the scumbag employers of illegals to stop hiring illegals. Will the illegals still continue to break in if the scumbag employers of illegals are FORCED to stop hiring them? Of course not. Most of the illegals here now, would also be without jobs, would have little alternative but to go back to where they came from.

obvious Child

Or maybe help Mexico produce more opportunities?

Either you or Rogue were against remittances. Which is amusing as those create jobs and opportunities in Mexico. It as if neither of you two really understand the subject.

obvious Child

You must constantly be going to Home Depot to buy new windows.

Do they know you by first name?

Merely because someone disagrees with your stances of immigration doesn't make them a rabid supporter of this. I already brought this up before with you and you choose to ignore it (probably because thinking hurts eh?). Furthermore, neither you nor Rage have been able to refute much of anything I've said to either of you. Neither of you responded to my thread about how technology leads to job losses.

Not necessarily true. Illegal immigration problems exist in every country that has one or both of the differentials with another country. Mexico is seeing a rash of illegal immigration from its poorer neighbors. The desperately poor Dominican Republic has huge illegal problems with its even poorer neighbor. What we don't see is illegal immigration between the US and Canada. Even THOUGH employers would hire Canadians illegally in the US. Your alleged problem exists for the populations where the differentials aren't significant or noticeable. You don't see Europeans illegally immigrating to the US to work in the US because they have the same or even better opportunities where they are. Your logic fails because you fail to realize that the situation is far more complex then "illegals BAD!"

Wrong. See above for why your argument is largely garbage. The only way to stop illegal immigration is to create jobs and opportunities in Mexico. East Germans stopped going to other parts of Europe to find jobs as East Germany was developed. South Koreans stopped going abroad to find jobs as Park's regime developed the country. The former Warsaw pact countries are seeing many of their workers leave for parts of Western Europe because there are opportunities. That will largely stop when their own countries have good opportunities for them. If you want to stop illegal immigration, create jobs and opportunities in Mexico. Neither you nor James seem like you even want to admit this part of the discussion exists. It is as if your arguments are stuck at "employers = bad, immigration = bad."

Probably. All kinds of illegal activities that rake in the cash exist in America. Drug dealing, prostitution for starters. Furthermore, it's not that hard to get forged papers. Heck many illegal workers have social security cards. I know a guy who's number was used by an illegal worker. As long as firms are looking to cut costs, they'll be willing to hire these people.

You act as if the only way to get money in this system was from a legal job.

Rogue

WTF?

This is a thread about who is really responsible for the illegal Mexican invasion. That's basically all I'm interested in. I have put out an argument that those most responsible for the illegal Mexican invasion are the scumbag employers who hire the illegals. Most of the illegals that aren't criminals break into the US because scumbag employers of illegals hire them at wages an American citizen won't work for. You have yet to prove why stopping scumbag employers of illegals from hiring illegals won't stop the illegal Mexican invasion, like it did in Arizona and Oklahoma.

Don't try to hijack this thread with me. Either prove that stopping the American employers from hiring the poverty rejects from Mexico won't for the most part stop the illegal Mexican invasion, except for the criminal illegals, or get off the pot.

Quit spouting Calderon's propaganda. Tell Calderon that it's not the responsibility of the US to create jobs and opportunities in Mexico so that Mexico will stop trying to dump their poverty rejects on the US. The solution to stop the illegal Mexican invasion in the US, from the American point of view, is to FORCE the scumbag employers of illegals to stop hiring illegals. It's pretty cut and dried. Arizona and Oklahoma showed the way. Tough on illegals/tough on the employers of illegals laws which require MANDATORY e-verification of the legal status of an employee, severe sanctions on those repeat offender employers of illegals, including jail and loss of business license, and PROOF of legal status to receive social services CREATED A MASS EXODUS OF ILLEGALS FROM THOSE TWO STATES. That's what we're shooting for here.

Really now? Are there enough illegal activities for the 20 million illegals already here? OK then, only those illegals,that don't have jobs because the employers of illegals were forced to not hire them anymore, AND that don't want to engage in illegal activities will go home. Mandatory e-verification would shut out the illegal with a forged SS card. Firms that hire illegals would lose their business license.

Again, there are not enough criminal jobs for 20 million illegals. Most will have to go back to where they came from. When that happens the American sheeple will realize that most of the illegals left in the US are criminals. Even pro illegal open border activists with an agenda like yourself will have to turn on those criminal illegals.

obvious Child

I stated before:

"People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones." Hence your constant need to be replacing windows. You obviously missed the joke.

Except that ignores the history of immigration for better lives. If you want to stop migration, create opportunities within the potential migrant's home. It's just that simple.

Who said that it stopped in Arizona or Oklahoma? What makes you think that people still aren't hiring illegals using false papers or other forms of forged documentation? Your contempt of the American spirit is quite disturbing. We will find a way to do what the government says we can't.

Your problem is that you refuse to look at the issue as a whole. You want to look at a single instance without discussing the greater issue as well as the complex economics of migration. You know that if we expand the discussion to why people migrant, your argument will collapse. By keeping your argument extremely childish, you hope to avoid such a discussion. Countries that are rich, that have low or no, or even surplus differentials with the US don't illegally migrant towards the US. You don't see Mexicans illegally migrating to find work in poorer central or Latin American countries. It just doesn't happen. South Koreans don't find try to find jobs aside from greenfield investment or management positions in developing Asian countries. They use to. Not any more.

Furthermore, your argument doesn't address individual people hiring illegals. You won't believe just how many Mexicans work as illegal private maids. Are you going to jail them?

Finally, even if you did enforce a no hiring of illegals and somehow managed to actually enforce it and check all of the papers of the day laborers (good luck with that) all of the time, every day, the perception of a better life in America will still be there. While many illegals have jobs before they come, many don't and are counting on their ability to do work we won't do (which is quite a lot) to make a better life.

Apparently history and developmental economics are not something you are familiar with. Furthermore I don't read much of anything Calderon has written aside from what the Economists infrequently writes about him. What I DO know is a fair bit about history and development economics and how it effects migration. Ignoring these two aspects doesn't make your argument stronger, in fact your deliberate avoidance of them seem to make you look somewhat ignorant to how actual trade relations, international economics and generally development even works. Not a good thing for you.

No one said that it was. However you are complaining while rejecting the one thing that will absolutely solve what you do not want. Similar to how pro-life is often anti-contraceptive, you are against the solution to your problem. Either you are deliberately being silly or you do not understand the issue.

Only if you wish to harm the American economy, make firms uncompetitive, fail to actually stop the reason for illegal immigration and generally make our wallets smaller and make things more expensive sure. Now I don't think that making American firms less competitive especially considering what industries we're talking about, namely construction and food is a good thing especially given the economy.

Would you be willing to say that "I'm for stopping illegal labor even though it will put many local firms out of business as well as jacking up food prices even more then they already are" ?

That remains to be seen.

So more government interfering with business, more regulation and more red tape is the answer?

You sound like a socialist, an authoritarian one (look up another terms that mean that)

See above. And you'd be surprised what they'd do to make a living. And saddling American firms with more costs is rarely a good idea.

Your paranoia is ridiculous.

Merely because someone disagrees with your stances of immigration doesn't make them a rabid supporter of this.

Stop redefining words to suit your piss arguments.

Voidwar

No Frikkin Kidding

Rogue

Since you can't prove that forcing American employers of illegals to stop hiring illegals, for fear of massive fines, jail time, and/or loss of business licenses, will not stop the illegal Mexican invasion, I'm sure you will ramble on and tell us all about the history of immigration, as if it's relevant. Tell Calderon that since the 2nd richest man in the world is a Mexican and that mexico is the 12th richest nation in the world that Mexico has the resources to take care of Mexico's problems themselves.

You're not well informed down south are you. Aren't you aware that MANDATORY e-verification, as these tough on the employers of illegals laws in these two states require, of the legal status of an employee, makes false documents useless?

More of Calderon's useless propaganda? You can't get past the fact that it makes no difference why illegals break into the US if the scumbag employers of illegals are forced not the hire them. No jobs here they won't come. Most of those illegals already here without jobs will have to go back home. Talk about a collapsing argument.

Finally got around to the 'will you jail your neighbor for hiring illegals argument' huh? Well, these new tough on illegals, tough on the employers of illegals laws are designed to stop businesses from hiring illegals, to dry up the jobs magnet. After millions and millions of illegals have self deported, maybe we'll get around to illegal domestic help.

Ok, just as long as about 10 million of the 20 million illegals here now have self deported, and we have no new illegals breaking in because they know that there are no jobs for them.

Wow. OK. Well, we know that you don't know Calderon, you're just accidentally spouting his progaganda. You appear to be way too overqualified to solve something like the illegal Mexican invasion, where forcing the American employers of illegals to stop hiring illegals would obviously stop the illegal Mexican invasion cold.

Tell Calderon that you're just way too overqualified to understand the practical solution to....anything.

The only ones hurt would be the employers of illegals who wouldn't be able to line their pockets with profits from exploiting illegal labor. How would forcing scumbag employers of illegals to stop hiring illegals make them uncompetitive? Who would they be uncompetitive against? Those firms that don't employ illegals? Actually, it would just even the playing field. Forcing scumbag employers of illegals to stop hiring illegals would stop the illegal Mexican invasion cold and even reverse it and that is what we are tying to do, whether you and Calderon like it or not. Illegal labor is only about 6-8% of the cost of produce. American taxpayers wouldn't have to subsidize the illegal labor so that a few industries could line their pockets. Now that we are in a recession, we need to reserve all of the low skill jobs that we can for American citizens.

Hell yes. If a firm can't compete with a business that doesn't hire illegals maybe they deserve to go out of business. They're just screwing things up for legitimate businesses. As I pointed out, labor is only about 6-8% of the cost of produce. If a grower had to hire legal labor it wouldn't run up the price of produce that much. The plus is we wouldn't have to give illegals free social services, free ER medical, free education, etc.

Just enough to keep them honest.

Yep, you're definitely overqualified.

Well, I'm only talking about forcing those scumbag American firms who hire illegals from illegally hiring illegals, to protect those American firms who obey the law and don't hire illegals. Which, by the way, will dry up the jobs magnet that draws the illegals here in the first place, and will stop the illegal Mexican invasion.

Overqualified.

I know. And you just accidentally spout Calderon propaganda.

OK. You too.