It's The Reaction Stupid!

Zyphlin · 04-15-08, 03:35 PM

Moderator's Warning:

This is a potentially very interesting thread, that started with a good post. Lets keep that up. Cut the sarcastic add on's to comments that do nothing but promote incivility, or name calling that is unneeded and simply baiting.

niftydrifty · 04-15-08, 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by conman

Please post "the entire context." I heard it (somebody posted it here a couple of weeks ago). Didn't really change anything.

News: The full story behind Wrightâ€™s 'God Damn America' sermon

Quote:

"What we've learned over this year is that hope is making a comeback. It is making a comeback and let me tell you something, for the first time in my adult life, I am really proud of my country. And not just because Barack has done well, but because I think people are hungry for change. And I have been desperate to see our country moving in that direction and just not feeling so alone in my frustration and disappointment. I've seen people who are hungry to be unified around some basic common issues, and it's made me proud. And I feel privileged to be a part of even witnessing this, traveling around states all over this country and being reminded that there is more that unites us than divides us..."

key word is "really." look again and you'll find that the "really" was left out much of the time that the quote was being discussed.

Quote:

So, it depends on where you are, but I think it’s fair to say that the places where we are going to have to do the most work are the places where people most cynical about government. The people are mis-appre…they’re misunderstanding why the demographics in our, in this contest have broken out as they are. Because everybody just ascribes it to white working-class don’t wanna work — don’t wanna vote for the black guy. That’s…there were intimations of that in an article in the Sunday New York Times today - kind of implies that it’s sort of a race thing.

Here’s how it is: in a lot of these communities in big industrial states like Ohio and Pennsylvania, people have been beaten down so long. They feel so betrayed by government that when they hear a pitch that is premised on not being cynical about government, then a part of them just doesn’t buy it. And when it’s delivered by — it’s true that when it’s delivered by a 46-year-old black man named Barack Obama, then that adds another layer of skepticism.

But — so the questions you’re most likely to get about me, ‘Well, what is this guy going to do for me? What is the concrete thing?’ What they wanna hear is so we’ll give you talking points about what we’re proposing — to close tax loopholes, uh you know uh roll back the tax cuts for the top 1%, Obama’s gonna give tax breaks to uh middle-class folks and we’re gonna provide healthcare for every American.

But the truth is, is that, our challenge is to get people persuaded that we can make progress when there’s not evidence of that in their daily lives. You go into some of these small towns in Pennsylvania, and like a lot of small towns in the Midwest, the jobs have been gone now for 25 years and nothing’s replaced them. And they fell through the Clinton administration, and the Bush administration, and each successive administration has said that somehow these communities are gonna regenerate and they have not. And it’s not surprising then they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren’t like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations.

Um, now these are in some communities, you know. I think what you’ll find is, is that people of every background — there are gonna be a mix of people, you can go in the toughest neighborhoods, you know working-class lunch-pail folks, you’ll find Obama enthusiasts. And you can go into places where you think I’d be very strong and people will just be skeptical. The important thing is that you show up and you’re doing what you’re doing.

would you agree that some, not all, people are bitter in the way Hussein is saying? had you ever heard that part before?

Arcana XV · 04-15-08, 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TOJ

If they are so innocuous, why is the douchebag running away from them so fast and lying his butt off trying to spin his way out of them.

I haven't gotten that impression, quite the opposite in fact. From what I've seen so far he hasn't run away from anything. He's aknowledged that he mangled that speech and he's tried to rephrase what he said in a way that might be perceived as less "elitist". But all in all, he's still saying exactly the same thing he said the first time. If you have any links of him spinning his way out of it, I wouldn't mind reading them.

Hatuey · 04-15-08, 03:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arcana XV

I haven't gotten that impression, quite the opposite in fact. From what I've seen so far he hasn't run away from anything. He's aknowledged that he mangled that speech and he's tried to rephrase what he said in a way that might be perceived as less "elitist". But all in all, he's still saying exactly the same thing he said the first time. If you have any links of him spinning his way out of it, I wouldn't mind reading them.

The American people are used to spinning after 8 years of constant lying. So when somebody demonstrates honesty and explains what they mean they perceive it as spinning. It's a sad decease that affects 3/10 Americans.

Arcana XV · 04-15-08, 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hatuey

The American people are used to spinning after 8 years of constant lying. So when somebody demonstrates honesty and explains what they mean they perceive it as spinning. It's a sad decease that affects 3/10 Americans.

I blame the politics of polarity and partisan animosity that are the inevitable consequences of a two-party system.

TOJ · 04-15-08, 06:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arcana XV

I blame the politics of polarity and partisan animosity that are the inevitable consequences of a two-party system.

FYI, there are multiple parties that run candidates every cycle. Just because most folks vote for one of two does not mean it is a two party system.

conman · 04-15-08, 07:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by niftydrifty

News: The full story behind Wrightâ€™s 'God Damn America' sermon

This is not the video I was referring to. Somebody posted the video so we could hear exactly what the reverend was saying, in order, unabated. This is not the entire context; this is a guy who watched the video commentating on it.

Quote:

key word is "really." look again and you'll find that the "really" was left out much of the time that the quote was being discussed.

"Really." Let's play the word game here.

That word does not change the context much if any at all.

Quote:

would you agree that some, not all, people are bitter in the way Hussein is saying? had you ever heard that part before?

I'm sorry, but I don't understand your question or what you are referring to.

niftydrifty · 04-15-08, 08:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by conman

This is not the video I was referring to. Somebody posted the video so we could hear exactly what the reverend was saying, in order, unabated. This is not the entire context; this is a guy who watched the video commentating on it.

my bad. I didn't read your post very closely and I thought you were asking me to explain the context of each. I didn't really care to explain the context of the pastor's remarks. so I posted a link to someone that does. after all, if anyone dislikes the pastor that much, my advice to them would be to not vote for the pastor in November. but anyhow, the link explains the context and the sermon, for anyone that's interested. I might add that there's kind of a thing with black sermons where the pastor gets all fired up in the middle and says crazy outrageous things, and then ends sorta peacefully. that's what Wright was doing. he was essentially saying governments are flawed, you can't count on government, but that God is not flawed.

here's the key portion of the sermon. knock yourself out.

YouTube - Tell the Whole Story FOX! Barack Obama's pastor Wright

when you watch the whole thing, be sure to note the "as long as" condition, mentioned by Wright, following the oft-quoted objectional remarks. I doubt they've been shown on Fox news. context.

Quote:

Originally Posted by conman

"Really." Let's play the word game here.

That word does not change the context much if any at all.

then you're being dishonest.

"I'm hungry."

"I'm really hungry."

same thing?

how about this?

"I'm proud."

"I'm really proud."

question: why did Fox News edit out the "really." why does a news organization edit out words and misrepresent what people say?

Quote:

Originally Posted by conman

I'm sorry, but I don't understand your question or what you are referring to.

I'm referring to the words in bold from the part of Obama's speech I quoted.

would you agree that some, not all, people are bitter in the way Hussein is saying? had you ever heard that part before?

conman · 04-15-08, 10:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by niftydrifty

I doubt they've been shown on Fox news.

I have been slammed in recent posts for making generalizations. The fact that I am conservative does not mean I watch Fox News.

Quote:

then you're being dishonest.

"I'm hungry."

"I'm really hungry."

same thing?

how about this?

"I'm proud."

"I'm really proud."

question: why did Fox News edit out the "really." why does a news organization edit out words and misrepresent what people say?

I originally read about this in a Michelle Malkin article, and she did not omit the word "really." LINK
It doesn't matter though. Whether she was proud or really proud, the fact of the matter is that she is making the statement that our country has done nothing to make her a proud American until now. There is something wrong there.
How could you not be proud of how America and its citizens reacted to the tragedy of 9/11? That was only 6 years ago. How about the liberation of Kuwait? What about how we elected a man who showed us all that we could stand proud and remain a superpower, after his predecessor was ready to throw in the towel (Regan). Who's being dishonest?

niftydrifty · 04-15-08, 11:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by conman

I have been slammed in recent posts for making generalizations. The fact that I am conservative does not mean I watch Fox News.

who ever said you ever did? there are hundreds of ways we could dissect the "issues" regarding these candidates. we're discussing these particular "issues" because they've gotten the most airtime in the media lately. Fox is part of the media. I watch Fox. I watch other cable channels. Fox plays these things more heavily than the other channels. I've not yet seen it there. I mentioned it. You assumed I was talking about you. I wasn't.

Quote:

Originally Posted by conman

I originally read about this in a Michelle Malkin article, and she did not omit the word "really." LINK
It doesn't matter though. Whether she was proud or really proud, the fact of the matter is that she is making the statement that our country has done nothing to make her a proud American until now. There is something wrong there.

The something that is wrong there is that you're making another leap. I'm really surprised that you still managed to misread it. read the quote again. she didn't say "ever." she said her "adult life." read the quote one more time. she said "really proud." as in, more proud than just plain "proud." rather than say something like "she is making the statement that our country has done nothing to make her a proud American until now," why not just paste what she really did say? it's different than what you say she said. that's an example of dishonesty.

Quote:

Originally Posted by conman

How could you not be proud of how America and its citizens reacted to the tragedy of 9/11? That was only 6 years ago.

secrecy, expansion of the executive branch, impeachable offenses, an invasion with an unplanned aftermath, ... oh, and this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by conman

How about the liberation of Kuwait?

I can't really ignore (sorry) the context. we protect a country from man we were arming a few years earlier. shame is a better word than pride.

Quote:

Originally Posted by conman

What about how we elected a man who showed us all that we could stand proud and remain a superpower, after his predecessor was ready to throw in the towel (Reagan).

you mean Reagan?! I can't be proud of illegal wars and negotiating with terrorists. the guy supported Saddam AND bin Laden. amazing that you even mention him. perhaps you didn't know.

Quote:

Originally Posted by conman

Who's being dishonest?

I told you exactly why I thought you were. I pointed it out. no need to bring up all this other stuff.