CSA_TX

A quick poll to get an idea of your views and which way you lean.

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Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and the government when it deserves it. M Twain

vauge

I voted for "less involved in my life and follow current laws and regulations".

I believe in the constitution, but also believe that folks are not smart enough to regulate themselves when it comes to morality. Our christian way of life is becoming rotten to the core in front of our eyes.

We have elected a group of folks to stand on capitol hill for both our values and laws. If we do not agree with those values then we need to do something about it.

There are regulations such as seatbelts - which I don't like. But, If I REALLY disagreed with it, I would have gotten off my tush and did something about it. What Janet Jackson & Justin Timberlake did was a very very bad thing. They [FCC] have a set of standards and regulations for what is acceptable for broadcasts - again if I disagree it's time to write my congressman. Afterall they head the commission.

Neither of the issues stated are in the original constitution. Regardless if I am for or against specific regulations; I hold the upmost respect for the constitution and the laws of the land. Which includes Federal, state, and local laws.

CSA_TX

Not one to bring one's faith into a political debate. I have to wonder how one could say "Our christian way of life is becoming rotten to the core in front of our eyes" The first amendment to the constitution which is the supreme law of our nation says

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

So by claiming that the United States is a christian nation is against the the constitution. Granted the founding fathers were god loving christians however they had seen the problems with a government sponsored religion first hand. So they set out to forge a new land were all religions would be protected and not one would be better than the other. So how can someone who supports the constitution what it says and means try to use the government to push religous values and morals on its citizens?

I am not saying there is a separation of church and state at all what I am saying is that for one to claim this country is a christian nation is the same as saying this country is a Jewish nation, etc...

Second point I would like to make is do you really want politians Like Bill Clinton, Ted Kennedy, etc.. to give you morals? I'm not a real fan of the morals they have personally. Instead I'll take the morals I got from the good book and my parents and go from there.

So bring it own let me know what you think?

vauge

Being a constitutional buff as yourself, you realize that alot of those words are BASED on christian core values. If you deny that, you deny one of the main reasons our fathers came to our shores (other than for a profit).

CONGRESS cannot tell you what religion you must repect or what god you must bow down too. NOR can CONGREES become a religion in and of itself. Your can say what you want. So can the press. You may peacfully assemble and petition the governement.
This is what it says. Many many judges have tried to rewrite that - especially in very modern times.

You are right, there is no separation of church and state.

You cannot give anyone morals. You cannot sell morals. You cannot pass a bucket with a bunch of moral slimey stuff in it. It doens't happen that way. You can however regulate it.
"Thou shall not steal" - I believe it's in the law somewhere.
"Thou shall not murder" - Yep thats there too.
"Thou shall not covet thy neighbors wife" - Yep adultery is a law as well.
This list can get longer if you wish.

Now back to your point about Bill Clinton and Ted Kennedy. I cannot stand the bastages. There is a thing called 'checks and balances' created in the constitution that I believe firmly in.

Awesome, so you know about the part where is says to obey the law of the land as well.

I do not see where we differ...

KD5DBL

OK Vauge... I'm probably going to regret wading in on this, but here goes...

but then later you say...

Can you explain this? It sorta sounds like you want it both ways... for the government to force morality/religion on the masses, but only the one that you agree with.

The constitution guarantees freedom of religion, but makes no mention of what that might be because the founders knew that it would be different for each individual. Sooo... what is good/moral for you may be an abomination to someone else (and vice versa).

BTW: Good lunch discussion today... thanks!

__________________
--
David
"Opinions are like butts..."

vauge

Maybe I didn't make myself clear.

I do not want the government to force religion on anyone.

The basic moral of murder is wrong.
Stealing is wrong.
Lieing is wrong.

This is what laws are for. You have to have a moral base for laws.
Our's was founded with Christianity in mind.

That christian moral base is deterirorating. It scares me to think that folks think its ok for their kids to steal, have sex, and watch porn at very young ages. This promotes MORAL decay regardless what reliegon you study/participate in.

CSA_TX

Perhaps I need to clarify what I was saying per the post I was responding to with my constitutional knowledge. The full quote that caught my attention was

"I believe in the constitution, but also believe that folks are not smart enough to regulate themselves when it comes to morality. Our christian way of life is becoming rotten to the core in front of our eyes."

So if the people are not smart enough to regulate themselves are you not saying the government needs to regulate their morality. That is what I got out of it at least, perhaps I was wrong. If that is where you were going then we are definitely not seeing eye to eye on this one. I believe the government can and has the right to pass laws that can regulate actions however they have no right to pass laws in regard to my morales or beliefs.

"You can however regulate it.
"Thou shall not steal" - I believe it's in the law somewhere.
"Thou shall not murder" - Yep thats there too.
"Thou shall not covet thy neighbors wife" - Yep adultery is a law as well.
This list can get longer if you wish. "

These are all actions not morals or beliefs so yes they can regulate them.

"Being a constitutional buff as yourself, you realize that christian of those words are BASED on christian core values. If you deny that, you deny one of the main reasons our fathers came to our shores (other than for a profit).

Again I repeat claiming that the United States is a christian nation is against the the constitution. So by trying to force christian values on Americans is against the constitution.

So what I have gotten out of your post so far is that the government needs to police our morales and force Christian values on its citizens. Yep land of the free home of the brave.

CSA_TX

per Vauge
"That christian moral base is deterirorating. It scares me to think that folks think its ok for their kids to steal, have sex, and watch porn at very young ages. This promotes MORAL decay regardless what reliegon you study/participate in"

again you say Christian morals. Again it apears you are trying to get the govenment to push a certain religous agenda on our country. Kids have been having sex for years not just recently, as a matter of fact my grandmother got married at 13 and I would bet she was having sex at that age also. I certanly enjoyed watching porn at a young age but I am not a perv except with my wife. So not to worried about that either, and I think the only people who think it is ok for their kids to steal are theives themselves.

vauge

I am sorry but the United States IS a Christian nation.

"In God we trust" is on all our money.
The 10 commandments are in the supreme court.
A prayer is made before opening congress every day.

Is it FORCED? No, and should not be.

Purhaps our definitions of 'morals' are defined differently.

Morals and religion to me are 2 seperate words and demand seperate definitions.

Morals are something that most humans believe is wrong. Regardless of his/her religion.

Religion is "Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe."

CSA_TX

Does God only exist in Christianity? If so thats news to me.
The Ten comandments are in the Torah also.
I still beleive that claiming the United States as a Christion nation is not right and goes against the principles and founding ideas of this nation. that is my opinion I am going to back off and let some others join in on this subject. Please others join in and let us know what you think.