When faith healing fails....... - Page 9

tryreading · 04-01-08, 07:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ethereal

It seems you're a bit slow to the draw, tryreading. Reverend and I have reached a resolution on the topic - quite amicably I might add.

But you forgot to call 'final post' or whatever it is people are supposed to claim when they feel they have made such a profound point that any following discussion would be pointless.

Ethereal · 04-01-08, 07:35 PM

I assumed the finality of our discussion would be self-evident to anyone with the ability to read. I made my point and Reverend stated that he agreed. If you felt there was someone with whom you had a bone to pick the only one could be me since it was my analysis which lead to the resolution of said topic.

tryreading · 04-01-08, 09:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ethereal

I assumed the finality of our discussion would be self-evident to anyone with the ability to read. I made my point and Reverend stated that he agreed. If you felt there was someone with whom you had a bone to pick the only one could be me since it was my analysis which lead to the resolution of said topic.

Things don't work the way you assume they should. If I have more to say on a subject, I just go ahead and say it. Three of us responded to RH after you did. Your post didn't end the discussion with him. The thread will go on.

Ethereal · 04-02-08, 12:57 AM

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Things don't work the way you assume they should.

Yes, much to my chagrin.

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If I have more to say on a subject, I just go ahead and say it.

Exactly my point. You didn't have anything more to add in the way of new information. What you said had already been covered by myself, and since Reverend wasn't contesting it your post was entirely superfluous.

I'm not saying I don't welcome your posts, I was merely pointing out that you had come in after the fact - along with the others who posted a response.

Quote:

Three of us responded to RH after you did. Your post didn't end the discussion with him. The thread will go on.

He wasn't contesting what I had said, and neither were you, so yes, the conversation was technichally at an end. If you wish to further the discussion by rehashing what has already been covered then I feel obliged to point it out.

Reverend_Hellh0und · 04-02-08, 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ethereal

I assumed the finality of our discussion would be self-evident to anyone with the ability to read. I made my point and Reverend stated that he agreed. If you felt there was someone with whom you had a bone to pick the only one could be me since it was my analysis which lead to the resolution of said topic.

Would you agree though that at 18 if one wanted one could choose to pray to the sun for healing as opposed to taking his treatments?

Further, what if there are two schools of thought on a disease say a child is diagnosed with X and 30% of doctors say that there is no cure and 70% say there is this cure but it might be worse than the disease. Can a parent at this point choose not to go with the 70%?

Sorta expanding the topic but i would like your opinion.

Also back on topic, what if the girl fully understood her condition and chose to leave it in God's hands, if your answer is she is too young, then at what age is she no longer too young?

American · 04-03-08, 01:38 PM

How quickly they discard the so called "Separation of Church and State" when a paradox to their view of society arises. If a person lies dying in a hospital and requests the services of their pastor, and is refused and dies; who is to blame?

Mach · 04-03-08, 04:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by American

How quickly they discard the so called "Separation of Church and State" when a paradox to their view of society arises. If a person lies dying in a hospital and requests the services of their pastor, and is refused and dies; who is to blame?

According to Chistian mythology, God is to blame for every death, in every case. You know, kids dying of cancer and all...gods work.
But god is not real, so that's really just a fiction story.

Separation of Church and State is not being diregarded at all, in fact, it's being enforced.

One hallmak of the thinking of the times, resulting in the U.S. Constitution (among many others), is specifically the seperation of the two, namely, that religion is not real, and to govern a nation, we need something real, thus, we separate the two. On one hand we have statement about reality, about how humans will create laws and how power will be distributed, about the rights we grant one another...and on the other hand we have religions, which are fiction stories, important to some people, entertaining to many, but ultimately not about reality.

Just as with medicine. We need something real that we obtain via science, and we don't use the NOT REAL, which would be faith. That is why we don't use faith in science, or mystics in medicine, or tarot cards to make policy choices, or magic eight balls to get driving directions, or god to save people from hurricanes, or zeus to throw lightning bolts at nations that threaten us. We rely on, of all things...our knowledge of reality. Thank your fellow humans, your ancestors, the doctors that are saving lives while enduring stressfull jobs, etc. I do.

It is not an accident that it's all consistent, it's dictated by logic.

-Mach

American · 04-06-08, 05:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mach

According to Chistian mythology, God is to blame for every death, in every case. You know, kids dying of cancer and all...gods work.
But god is not real, so that's really just a fiction story.

Separation of Church and State is not being diregarded at all, in fact, it's being enforced.

One hallmak of the thinking of the times, resulting in the U.S. Constitution (among many others), is specifically the seperation of the two, namely, that religion is not real, and to govern a nation, we need something real, thus, we separate the two. On one hand we have statement about reality, about how humans will create laws and how power will be distributed, about the rights we grant one another...and on the other hand we have religions, which are fiction stories, important to some people, entertaining to many, but ultimately not about reality.

Just as with medicine. We need something real that we obtain via science, and we don't use the NOT REAL, which would be faith. That is why we don't use faith in science, or mystics in medicine, or tarot cards to make policy choices, or magic eight balls to get driving directions, or god to save people from hurricanes, or zeus to throw lightning bolts at nations that threaten us. We rely on, of all things...our knowledge of reality. Thank your fellow humans, your ancestors, the doctors that are saving lives while enduring stressfull jobs, etc. I do.

It is not an accident that it's all consistent, it's dictated by logic.

-Mach

With all due respect, you don't have a clue.

Quote:

The ways of Providence being inscrutable, and the justice of it not to be scanned by the shallow eye of humanity, nor to be counteracted by the utmost efforts of human power or wisdom, resignation, and as far as the strength of our reason and religion can carry us, a cheerful acquiescence to the Divine Will, is what we are to aim.

GEORGE WASHINGTON, letter to Colonel Bassett, Apr. 25, 1773

By the all-powerful dispensations of Providence, I have been protected beyond all human probability and expectation; for I had four bullets through my coat, and two horses shot under me, yet escaped unhurt, altho' death was levelling my companions on every side.

GEORGE WASHINGTON, letter to John A. Washington, Jul. 18, 1755

Primary Source Activity:
George Washington’s Thanksgiving Proclamation of 1789
(Source: http://gwpapers.virginia.edu/documents/thanksgiving/transcript.html)

[New York, 3 October 1789]

By the President of the United States of America. a Proclamation.
Whereas it is the duty of all Nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey his will, to be grateful for his benefits, and humbly to implore his protection and favor--and whereas both Houses of Congress have by their joint Committee requested me "to recommend to the People of the United States a day of public thanksgiving and prayer to be observed by acknowledging with grateful hearts the many signal favors of Almighty God especially by affording them an opportunity peaceably to establish a form of government for their safety and happiness."
Now therefore I do recommend and assign Thursday the 26th day of November next to be devoted by the People of these States to the service of that great and glorious Being, who is the beneficent Author of all the good that was, that is, or that will be--That we may then all unite in rendering unto him our sincere and humble thanks--for his kind care and protection of the People of this Country previous to their becoming a Nation--for the signal and manifold mercies, and the favorable interpositions of his Providence which we experienced in the tranquillity, union, and plenty, which we have since enjoyed--for the peaceable and rational manner, in which we have been enabled to establish constitutions of government for our safety and happiness, and particularly the national One now lately instituted--for the civil and religious liberty with which we are blessed; and the means we have of acquiring and diffusing useful knowledge; and in general for all the great and various favors which he hath been pleased to confer upon us.
and also that we may then unite in most humbly offering our prayers and supplications to the great Lord and Ruler of Nations and beseech him to pardon our national and other transgressions--to enable us all, whether in public or private stations, to perform our several and relative duties properly and punctually--to render our national government a blessing to all the people, by constantly being a Government of wise, just, and constitutional laws, discreetly and faithfully executed and obeyed--to protect and guide all Sovereigns and Nations (especially such as have shewn kindness onto us) and to bless them with good government, peace, and concord--To promote the knowledge and practice of true religion and virtue, and the encrease of science among them and us--and generally to grant unto all Mankind such a degree of temporal prosperity as he alone knows to be best.

Given under my hand at the City of New-York the third day of October in the year of our Lord 1789.

Go: Washington

Primary Source Activity:
George Washington’s 1st Inaugural Address (excerpt)
(Source: http://gwpapers.virginia.edu/documents/inaugural/final.html)

George Washington’s first speech as President of the United States, New York, 30 April 1789:
...it would be peculiarly improper to omit in this first official Act, my fervent supplications to that Almighty Being who rules over the Universe, who presides in the Councils of Nations, and whose providential aids can supply every human defect, that his benediction may consecrate to the liberties and happiness of the People of the United States, a Government instituted by themselves for these essential purposes: and may enable every instrument employed in its administration, to execute with success, the functions allotted to his charge. In tendering this homage to the Great Author of every public and private good, I assure myself that it expresses your sentiments not less than my own; nor those of my fellow-citizens at large, less than either: No People can be bound to acknowledge and adore the invisible hand, which conducts the Affairs of men more than the People of the United States. Every step, by which they have advanced to the character of an independent nation, seems to have been distinguished by some token of providential agency. And in the important revolution just accomplished in the system of their United Government, the tranquil deliberations, and voluntary consent of so many distinct communities, from which the event has resulted, cannot be compared with the means by which most Governments have been established, without some return of pious gratitude along with an humble anticipation of the future blessings which the past seem to presage. These reflections, arising out of the present crisis, have forced themselves too strongly on my mind to be suppressed. You will join me I trust in thinking, that there are none under the influence of which, the proceedings of a new and free Government can more auspiciously commence…
Having thus imparted to you my sentiments, as they have been awakened by the occasion which brings us together, I shall take my present leave; but not without resorting once more to the benign Parent of the human race, in humble supplication that since he has been pleased to favour the American people, with opportunities for deliberating in perfect tranquility, and dispositions for deciding with unparellelled unanimity on a form of Government, for the security of their Union, and the advancement of their happiness; so this divine blessing may be equally conspicuous in the enlarged views--the temperate consultations, and the wise measures on which the success of this Government must depend.
Go: Washington.

While we are zealously performing the duties of good citizens and soldiers we certainly ought not to be inattentive to the higher duties of religion. To the distinguished character of patriot it should be our highest glory to add to the more distinguished character of Christian. The signal instances of providential Goodness which we have experienced and which have now almost crowned our labors with complete success, demand from us in a peculiar manner the warmest returns of gratitude and piety to the Supreme Author of all Good. {Writings, vol. XI, pp. 342-43.}

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tryreading · 04-06-08, 08:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by American

With all due respect, you don't have a clue.

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Thankfully, Jefferson put an end to the proclamation of Thanksgivings knowing they violated the spirit of the First Amendment. What business does a President have telling people when to pray, or to pray at all? That's a misuse of the position.

1069 · 04-06-08, 09:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tryreading

Thankfully, Jefferson put an end to the proclamation of Thanksgivings knowing they violated the spirit of the First Amendment. What business does a President have telling people when to pray, or to pray at all? That's a misuse of the position.

Really. jeesh.

Can you imagine? They'd be telling us all to pray so they could sneak away undetected for illicit rendezvous with interns in the oval office.