the makeout hobo

I was reading a thread by fluffy, and he was asking if we should be a christian nation. I've realized that as much as that term is thrown around, no one seems to have a clear definition of what it means. any takers? What does it mean for america to be christian nation?

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The Makeout Hobo is real, and does indeed travel around the country in his van and make out with ladies... If you meet the Makeout Hobo, it is customary to greet him with a shot of whiskey and a high five (if you are a dude) or passionate makeouts (if you are a lady).Vague is a man of honor

FluffyNinja

I'll take a shot, for what it's worth. I believe being a "Christian Nation," means first: Admitting that our nation was founded on Christian morals (or Christian Principles from the Holy Bible). Next, I believe it means that our government policies (both foreign and domestic) should be guided, at least somewhat, by these same principles (you know, tolerance, charity, kindness, faith, etc.). I believe we do this, to a certain extent. I believe, unlike many others on this post, that most of our leaders (past and present) have not been guided by greed or hunger for power or by ego, but, rather, from the intention to "help" or to "do something positive" in the world. I'm trying very hard to be an optimist here.

Oh, by the way, I DO NOT believe that being a "Christian Nation" means forcing Everyone to be Christian or means that those of other Faiths should be ostracized.

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Ask not what you can do for your country, ask, "Where's my government handout?"

Summerwind

Being a Christian nation WOULD mean a nation built on the principles of Christ; however since we in no way embrace those principles as a nation, nor does our government, nor do most of our elected officials. . . I think we are not. Jesus Christ as presented in the New Testament (which I believe is fiction but that's not the point here) would be mortified to find that anyone believed that the USA as it stands now is a "Christian" nation.

Lachean

We're a Christian nation in that we're a nation of mostly Christians, our government however was founded on the secular principles of liberty as described by Thomas Paine and articulated by Thomas Jefferson in our declaration to a despotic tyrant.

Our government is based on the constitution, which is a secular document. Anyone who says otherwise either does not understand the constitution, had a ****ty history teacher, or desperately wants to overstate their case for more mystical validation.

Now I'm going back to watch more of HBO's John Adams, damn is that ever a great series.

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"The original, and still the best!" - Grifter

gunner

can any nation really be solely devoted to one religion?. As i see it if you want to be a one religion nation you would have to outlaw all others, you then become a theocracy, but if the indigenous population was happy with that. is there a problem?, sorry I've drifted off to a Utopia
for me it would mean a nation born out of a common good with traditional values, a country that would stand up for what it believed without overtly trying to enforce there ideology onto other nations.

paul.

galenrox

I would disagree that we were founded on a secular principle of liberty. Recognizing that liberty is something that can be arrived at by a secular way does not change that the liberty which we arrived upon is not a secular one. If you define secular as it not mattering whether or not there is a God, clearly Lockean natural rights cannot be arrived upon in a secular manner (as if it did not matter whether or not there was a God those natural rights wouldn't exist in the sense that Locke described them). Our nation was formed on rights that were derived from God, that is not secular.

When they enumerated these rights, the very first were that congress shall not establish a religion or abridge the free exercise thereof. The mistake of the assumption that we are supposed to be secular is derived from a misinterpretation of this. We are not supposed to live and act as if it did not matter whether or not God exists, but in respecting God's creation we must respect the freedom of conscience, and some mistakenly assume that the only way to respect the freedom of conscience is to live one's public life as if God's presence was of no significance if there is a God.

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American

"Christian" nation is a phrase drummed up by anti-religious zealots who love to play with definitions and other nuances to support their argument for a secular humanistic society in America. They think by winning the definition argument that they prove that this nation was not based on religious precepts or that the people were not by a vast majority religious....mostly Christians. No, the Founders conceived a religiously neutral government, but by no means an immoral government. Like it or not, those morals assumed to exist predominantly within the US were Christian. The separation of church and state was mainly a restraint on the establishment of a state religion and thus a religious test on its representation. They did not believe in no religion, but in all religions or rather no limit on religion within society by the government.

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It's Obama's fault!

Lachean

How does secular = immoral? There is a morality proper to the message of liberty and reason.

Actually they were secular and predated the religion of Christianity.

Believing in secularism, and how it is necessary for a free and pluralistic nation /= believing in no religion at all. One can be a believer, and understand the purpose and necessity of secularism.

Lachean

Not from the Christian god, but by our "creator" or as Adams put it "our maker."

Having no laws in respect for an establishment of religion is secular; Thats what it means to be secular. Believing that your rights come from a creator (mind you that is deistic and not Christian language, and also a carefully chosen word choice) in no way contradicts secularism.

I think you're confusing "we" with "our government." Our government is supposed to be indifferent to religious dogma not in spite of the religious convictions of the founders but BECAUSE of them.

Having a secular government /= "living one's public life as if God's presence was of no significance." The founders knew that these rights, which they attributed to their maker, could only be possible in a pluralistic society; which only secularism can provide.

In recognition of the significance of their creator to our rights, did they create a secular Republic.

It is true that Paine, Adams and Jefferson were heavily influenced by Lockean natural rights, however our government is based on the constitution (not the declaration) and the words that were chosen for said constitution are quite clear.

Our government is secular, not despite of the dogmas of our founders but because of them.

galenrox

Locke's continual references to Adam would suggest otherwise.
I disagree, I think it is a theological claim to say that it does not matter whether or not God exists, and that is a fundamental claim of secularism. An absence of the establishment is an absence of the establishment, but some people believe that it does matter whether or not there is a God and are being forced in many ways as if they did not.
I'm absolutely not questioning the merit of the establishment clause, I'm talking about fulfilling both clauses fully, which is different from secularism.
In some ways yes and some ways no. Religious people are guided by religious convictions. Beyond that you're absolutely right.
This ignores that government infringes upon significant aspects of our lives, justly or unjustly. A perfect example is education, some believe in the significance of organized prayer to start classes. A secular school obviously won't do that. Some people find significance in living in a purely Christian community, which is clearly not allowed in a secular society. The point is that you can't ignore the free exercise clause, which the imposition of secular government institutions does.

btw, you'd be happy to know I'm reading "Atlas Shrugged", I'm digging it.