galenrox

I'm really baffled that you're actually pushing this. It matters because if you took the money you're making them spend on a school they have no intention of using because its education style makes theological statements that they don't agree with they wouldn't have to pay so much in taxes and could instead use that money to pay for education that actually fits with their religious belief. It matters because they're being forced to pay to educate other kids on top of paying for their own education, something people who agree with the theological statements of secular schooling do not have to do in order to practice their religious belief, the government is subsidizing one religious belief over another. I mean are you ****ing kidding me, are you seriously asking why it matters what the money's going to?
Except that road work isn't subsidizing one's religious beliefs at the expense of those who don't share it. Road work doesn't make theological statements in clear violation of both clauses of the first amendment pertaining to religion. Road work does not compete with private schools, as it provides a different service.

Dude, come on, this is ridiculous. If you don't think that it's a valid belief to believe that everyone in a class should join together in prayer before the class, but you have no right to say that people who do believe that should be first forced to pay for the education of people who share your belief before they're free to pay for the education of their own children, and I really have absolutely no ****ing idea what you're getting at suggesting that it doesn't matter that they're being forced to pay for this other school because they're being forced to pay for lots of other things too, ignoring that those other things aren't school.

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galenrox

No, that's not what I said. My issue is that they're being forced to pay for secular education before they're allowed to pay for the education that does not violate their religious beliefs. As I've said, if you don't think that educating the public is a justifiable aim of government. My concern is the same concern I would show if Catholics were being forced by government to fund Presbyterian churches, the reason we have the first amendment is so that the majority cannot use the government to pressure the minority to adhere to their religious beliefs. This includes the religious belief that in education if there is a God it is inconsequential, which is a primary tenet of secular education.

Fine, so then you'd have no problem if the government started using your tax dollars to pay for my church.
You're right, they're not entitled to tax breaks, if the system is unconstitutional no one should be taxed for it. Tax breaks would be extremely insufficient in this case. They don't need to pay for sectarian school, but if they want to send their kids to go then they need to be free to do so without material hindrance by the state, such as being forced to pay for another education first without regard for whether or not it's used.

FluffyNinja

I'm still not quite sure as to which "tenets" you are specifically referring. Could you refresh my memory?

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Ask not what you can do for your country, ask, "Where's my government handout?"

niftydrifty

yknow, like in a condo or in an apartment complex or sumpin'.

j/k. i'm just repeating myself. i'm referring to love your enemies, ... that kind of stuff.

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"I admit it. The liberal media were never that powerful, and the whole thing was often used as an excuse by conservatives for conservative failures." - Bill Kristol

the makeout hobo

What theological statement does public schooling make? School isn't making any theological statement. Public school is, or at least should be, theologically neutral. The whole issue here is people think that public school SHOULDN'T make a theological statement, and that's whats got your panties in a bunch. And your tax money is going somewhere you don't agree with religiously? Oh well. Quakers don't believe in violence, they still have to pay for the military. Should we scrap the military? Jehovah's Witnesses don't believe in elections, should we stop voting? The fact is that sometimes your money goes to things you don't agree with. This is something you're going to have to learn to accept.

Again, what theological statement does public schooling teach? Public schooling is religiously neutral. It doesn't promote any religious belief over another. And if you do somehow find a theological statement in PS, how do you propose we amend the system so that the poorest of us don't end up even more disadvantaged than they are from lack of education? You know, the poor people that the bible always says you should look out for.


But, at the end of the day, road work means less money you have to spend on religion. public schooling means less money you have to spend on religion. If I can't buy a bible because all my money went to road work, aren't my religious freedoms being violated? You skipped over the meat of the question.


On a side note, how do you get that "teacher should lead prayer" schtick from the bible?

Small restrictions are put on us concerning religious practice every day. I call your church a racket while I'm promoting my religion. I can't torture animals as part of my religion. I can't rape underage girls as part of my religion. According to the supreme court, and I agree, there are boundaries and restrictions where it is reasonable to restrict religious rights, like every other right. A law violates the free exercise clause only if it unduly burdens the practice of religion without a compelling public interest. Because you can find some crackpot whose religious beliefs are against ANYTHING if you look hard enough.

Also, dude, can you please stop with the "I'm baffled by this, I have no ****ing idea what you're talking about that", it just comes off as very rude, and doesn't contribute to the discussion at all. Just asking, personally.

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The Makeout Hobo is real, and does indeed travel around the country in his van and make out with ladies... If you meet the Makeout Hobo, it is customary to greet him with a shot of whiskey and a high five (if you are a dude) or passionate makeouts (if you are a lady).Vague is a man of honor

FluffyNinja

I believe that Jesus tells us to love our friends, family, and our enemies, but only to a certain extent. To the extent that we love him more. In Matthew 10: 34-37 NASB Jesus says, "Do not think that I came to bring peace on the Earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I came to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother.......He who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of Me, and he who loves his son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me."
Seemingly harsh words, but explicit, in that Christ intends that love for him come first.


In Mark 3:24 NASB Jesus states, "If a kingdom is divided against itself, it cannot stand."He seems to plainly state that a kingdom (nation?) will ultimately only survive if it is UNITED in its faith.

niftydrifty

that passage is a parable. it doesn't say anything about being united in the same faith.

the word used in Mark 3:24 for "kingdom" is "basileia."

that word isn't a literal word meaning kingdom. it typically means kingdom in a spiritual sense.

Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon

galenrox

That in education, if there is a God, God doesn't matter. That is just about as far from theologically neutral as you can get.

Are Quakers being forced to serve in the military? Do they have to give their time to the military first before they can give their time to things their religion leads them to want to do? Because if not the military example is completely devoid of meaning in this context.
Your argument is based on the strawman that I said you shouldn't have to pay for things you don't agree with through taxes. I argued you shouldn't have to pay for secular education before you're free to pay for an education that adheres to your religious beliefs. Your continued misrepresentation of my points does not reflect well upon the merits your position (as were you in a justifiable position you wouldn't have to resort to misrepresenting my posts).
That in education, if there is a God, God doesn't matter. It requires a pretty backwards view of religion to think the assertion that one's religious practice is inconsequential is religiously neutral.
You can pay to educate the public without having the government run the actual schools. We want more people driving hybrids, we subsidize the purchase of hybrids, we want people educated, we subsidize education.

I didn't skip over the meat of the question as there was no meat to the question. Perhaps if you had read my argument you'd recognize why, but in short the distinction is that one is the exact same thing as government using its power to compel people to attend a specific church and the other is road work.

On a side note, that's none of your business.
I find strawman arguments very rude also. I will try to do better if you will.

So the first amendment only pertains as long as you can't claim that its violation serves a public interest? What if the federal government started forcing people to pay their taxes to a specific state run church, and then said "You can go to whatever church you want, but you have to pay for this church, and you have to worship in some way." Would such a move be justified because our level of discipline within our society is a compelling public interest?

If you don't believe in the merit of religious freedom you're completely free to go to a country that shares your beliefs. America was founded on religious freedom and so even if it's inconvenient it's something you've gotta accommodate.

FluffyNinja

Okay, if you "typically" say so.

However; isn't this the whole point; that our nation SHOULD, according to Christ, be united in a "SPIRITUAL KINGDOM?"

niftydrifty

I've already addressed this.

http://www.debatepolitics.com/1057580140-post28.html (What does it mean to be a "christian nation")

http://www.debatepolitics.com/1057580936-post38.html (What does it mean to be a "christian nation")