Thread: Tibet: anti-Chinese rule protests spread to other areas

Originally Posted by Infinite Chaos

What makes you think China hasn't started already?

Your questions are so good that I am compelled to spend some extra time on research to be able to give you an appropriate response. Please prove by what you meant that China has started already. I would be happy to know the good news.

I sense you are loyal to China but do you accept that governments (including the Chinese) can do things which are wrong? Do you ever question your own Government or is this blind loyalty?

1. I am a person of Chinese descent living outside China, so your accusation of "blind loyalty" to the Chinese government is out of the question for me. Your accusations are typical of anti-China bashers in the West. When the Chinese patriots respond forcefully, anti-China bashers like you would accuse them of being "nationalistic with blind loyalty". When thousands of Chinese patriots demonstrate inside and outside China as shown in the website links below, anti-China bashers like you would allege that the Chinese government has a hand in coordinating and manipulating the protests. No matter how well coordinated and manipulated were the Chinese protests as alleged by the Western media, they could never surpass the surprisingly well-planning and coordination of the protests staged by the Tibetan separatists who were able to scale the Golden Gate Bridge, Notre Dame cathedral and Eiffel Tower freely to unfurl giant banners there.

Most Chinese patriots inside and outside China are not supporting the Chinese goverment but their ancestral land. You cannot say the overseas Chinese patriots including me are "loyal to China". Like me, they just have good feelings and best wishes towards the ancestral land. More pragmatically, the overseas Chinese know that their destiny is indirectly bound to the destiny of China. A strong China will ensure them a respectable and dignified place anywhere in the world.

The first generation of Chinese immigrants to the US in the 1840s and 1850s should know this very well as they were barred from many established trades by language barriers and racial discrimination, and had to toiled to the last day of their lives for meagre earnings as railroad workers in America.

Furthermore the Tibetan thugs and their foreign supporters are wrong to hijack the Olympic Games for their own ends. The Setswana proverb that when two elephants fight it is the grass that suffers, seems to hold true for the severe damage inflicted on the Olympic Movement by the Tibetan thugs and their foreign supporters. The Tibetan separatist elephant has not only trampled on the grass but also "urinated" on it. It is despicable for them to depict the five sacred interlocking Olympic rings as handcuffs. Following are the demonstrations by Chinese patriots inside and outside China to show their outrage at the Tibetan thugs and foreign interference in China's domestic affairs.

2. Chinese-Australians have held a demonstration in Australia's biggest city, Sydney calling for objective reporting of events in Tibet. Please read Australian Chinese demonstate in Sydney

3. On March 29, 2008, several hundred Chinese students and Chinese patriots gathered in the Yonge-Dundas Square in downtown Toronto for a pro-China rally in support of their homeland. Unsurprisingly, regardless of how peaceful this rally was, it was depicted as a conflicting protest by some biased media. Furthermore, a day later, few if any major television stations even discussed it. Please read Frederick’s Timelog Blog Archive Pro-Chinese rally

4. A pro-China demonstration on Parliament Hill on Sunday attracted about 5,000 Chinese-Canadians from Ottawa, Montreal and Toronto eager to show support for the troubled Beijing Olympics. Please read Pro-China rally boosts Beijing Games

5. Please read http://www.magicvalley.com/articles/.../d902208o1.txt on Pro-China demonstration at Dalai Lama event in Seattle.

6. Like all rational people, I accept that all governments (including the Chinese, the American and European) can do things which are wrong. When the anti-China farce is over sometime next year, I shall have some unpleasant words for the Chinese government in my parting shot before I ride off into the sunset like a knight-errant or samurai. Meanwhile, I have to focus on the harm done by the greater of the two evils -- the group of Tibetan hooligans and their foreign manipulators.

Originally Posted by AsIseeIt

--snip-- Please prove by what you meant that China has started already.

Are you going to suggest that China is unlike any other major power and does not engage in "influencing" other nations either through arms sales / political arm-twisting / overseas visits to "friendly" nations and or "glad handing" tours of Africa or other nations rich in the minerals China needs?

Originally Posted by AsIseeIt

I am a person of Chinese descent living outside China, so your accusation of "blind loyalty" to the Chinese government is out of the question for me. Your accusations are typical of anti-China bashers in the West. --snip--

You may ride happily off into the sunset - don't wait around for me - however I was merely pointing out that I have yet to read a single (Han) Chinese descendant anywhere on the web say anything pro-Tibetan independence. Almost every non-Tibetan Chinese say "Tibet is Chinese" or "Chinese forever".

I just think I would be a little more receptive to your argument if I read from Tibetans saying the same thing or if there were any (Han) Chinese who said "Tibet should be independent".

It's not anything as glamourous or suspicious as my wanting to humiliate any Chinese person - rather that I'm simply suspicious that the views are so monolithic and one-sided. I would be less suspicious of the "Tibet" argument if there seemed to be some difference in views, and I feel you would have more success convincing those you think are anti-Chinese or intent on humiliating China.

Originally Posted by Infinite Chaos

Are you going to suggest that China is unlike any other major power and does not engage in "influencing" other nations either through arms sales / political arm-twisting / overseas visits to "friendly" nations and or "glad handing" tours of Africa or other nations rich in the minerals China needs?

What I suggest were not your ways of influencing Third Word nations but a counter-offensive by China against Western nations using exactly the same tactics and methods which the West has been exerting pressure on China.

Following are the methods which had been mentioned in one of my previous messages, but seemed to have gone unnoticed by you:

a. In the future, dissidents and native rebels from America and Europe may be allowed to seek asylum or set up representative offices in China as long as they stay on the path of non-violence.

b. A Chinese lawmaker may find that one easy way to ensure that the world will never forget her existence is to become a Chinese Pelosi. Once a while when the Chinese lawmaker feels bored with life, she can seek excitement by:

i. getting her colleagues to present a Chinese Congressional gold medal to a deserving Red Indian freedom fighter.

ii. getting the Chinese Parliament to pass resolutions condemning America's human right violations against the Red Indians.

c. Radio Free America may be set up to bring the message of freedom to all American natives.

d. A Chinese mainland or Hong Kong actor may become a Chinese Richard Gere to fight for the cause of Red Indian independence.

To the above, I would like to add another method:

e. It may be exciting for some lawmakers in a Chinese city to award honorary citizenship to a dissident in the West or a Red Indian chief in America. Please read Channelnewsasia.com

To the above move by Paris lawmakers, I expect the Chinese authorities to use their same 50-year-old method to protest against the French. When will they stop protesting like robots? When will they realise that the best method of defence, as in chess, is counter-attack?

You may ride happily off into the sunset - don't wait around for me - however I was merely pointing out that I have yet to read a single (Han) Chinese descendant anywhere on the web say anything pro-Tibetan independence. Almost every non-Tibetan Chinese say "Tibet is Chinese" or "Chinese forever".

I just think I would be a little more receptive to your argument if I read from Tibetans saying the same thing or if there were any (Han) Chinese who said "Tibet should be independent".

It's not anything as glamourous or suspicious as my wanting to humiliate any Chinese person - rather that I'm simply suspicious that the views are so monolithic and one-sided. I would be less suspicious of the "Tibet" argument if there seemed to be some difference in views, and I feel you would have more success convincing those you think are anti-Chinese or intent on humiliating China.

If you enjoy debating with me, I don't mind to ride out of the sunrise anytime. So you are ready to tell "the European descendants in the USA to return all the lands to the Red Indians and pack up their bags for Europe"?

Originally Posted by jfuh

- it must be noted that the response you gave is not actually what Chaos asked nor is it what he has insinuated.

If you read the last few exchanges between me and Infinite Chaos, you can see the miscommunication between him and me. While I was suggesting what best China could counter Western attacks, he was talking about how China is influencing some Third World nations now.

Japan said on April 22 that pro-Tibet activists were free to protest when the Olympic torch arrives this weekend, signalling a change from recent legs where demonstrators have been warded off. Please read Channelnewsasia.com

Japan has to be mindful of its past history and extremely sensitive relations with China. If the Japanese government is so arrogant and insensitive as to let the pandemonium of the Paris torch relay repeat in Japan, anti-Japanese demonstrations in China won't be easy to put under control when erupted and Sino-Japanese relations would suffer a terrible setback.

It is easy to play with fire but harder to put it out especially when one's body is set ablaze.

Originally Posted by jfuh

Normally I don't like to jump in, but why would any Chinese site claim that Tibet should be free??

What I'm referring to is a voice expressing a different view. In some countries there are people with different opinions on National issues. In the UK, some people question our continuing hold on foreign territorial land i.e. Falklands / Gibralter. If any Brits read this - I'm not arguing the right or wrong - simply stating that different views exist. In Spain some Spaniards question the continuing Spanish territorial claims on so on. All I'm saying is every single Chinese (Han) I've read on Tibet says the same thing. No dissent, nothing - and that always rouses my suspicion.

Originally Posted by jfuh

As for Tibetan's claiming that Tibet should be Chinese - look no further than the Dalai Lama himself and the 17 pts signed by Tibet.

Good example. I would say his position demands this and I recognise you earlier in this thread demanded he be more accepting of Chinese rule and demand peaceful or no protest but I accept your example.

Originally Posted by jfuh

--snip-- The problem here however is that if say Tibet were indeed independent today, it's not going to be a state with free religion, it's going to be a theocratic state where - If the recent riots are of any symbolic value - ONLY Lamaism is the allowed religion and all others would be persecuted.
Ironically they the Tibetan Plateus as of now have far freer religious practice than there ever had been in Tibetan history because China is a strictly secular government - hell out right atheist at that.
Compared to That former theocratic god king government the communist regime is indeed the lesser of the two evils

This is not the point - the point is the people having a right to self determination and choice to make their own mistakes. Historically the strong always dominate the weak and this is the case with Tibet. They are not strong enough to force the issue of Independence and self determination. The fact is not that Chinese rule is good for Tibet but that the Tibetans may not want Chinese rule in the first place - but there won't be much chance for them to express this under the current political and media control that exists in China today.

Originally Posted by AsIseeIt

--snip-- Following are the methods which had been mentioned in one of my previous messages, but seemed to have gone unnoticed by you:

The fact I didn't see specific examples as relevant doesn't mean I dismissed or didn't notice them - I would still ask whether you think China (as a Govt) is not already using such tactics already. I'm not going to go searching for a Chinese Nancy Pelosi or whoever you ask me to find - that's a red herring tactic - it's the general tactics I am arguing, whether that be Chinese pressure on African states, North Korea, India or Taiwan or even on the USA (investing or buying up US companies)

Pressure and controlling tactics take all sorts of forms - the obvious ones you mention are (to me) less effective and thus not worthy of comment in comparison to the pressure the Chinese can deploy by buying into US and western interests.

Originally Posted by AsIseeIt

So you are ready to tell "the European descendants in the USA to return all the lands to the Red Indians and pack up their bags for Europe"?

You've lost me there my friend.