Thread: My take on abortion...

Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy

OK, find me a fetus that talks and can understand language.

Most people in the field of science believe that life begins at conception...........

Originally Posted by Bones

The above is the definition of murder, as used by law. A fetus is not a human being, therefore it is impossible to commit murder against it.
Also, if you knew anything at all about the subject you are debating, you would know that a fetus is never sentient when aborted - a second trimester/third trimester fetus is killed, or anethetised before the abortion takes place. The fetus is sentient, and feels no pain, or fear.

I suggest you do some research, at least then you may have an idea of what you are on about, because it's clear to me you don't have a clue.

Why is it that Scott Peterson got charged with 2 murders when he killed his wife and unborn fetus?

Originally Posted by tecoyah

I see...so we should begin a systematic campaign to hold persons responsible for the actions they partake in. Very well:

Navy Pride must now be accountable for the children he will force unto the lives of several hundred thousand women before he dies.
MC. no.spin will now take on the deaths of the millions of Kids he has ejected onto towels this week and quickly placed into the washing machine to hide his indescretions.

tecoyah must be punished for his failing to give the $25 to the firemans fund last month...who decides what responsibility is?

That is a cop out, I bet if it were possible to ask those unborn babies if they would rather be killed in the womb or born into a really hard life to a person they would say the latter.........

Originally Posted by MC.no.spin

A fetus is sentient much earlier on than the 3rd trimester. Read the facts:



Life Before Birth: The Fetal Senses

The only plausible evidence of sentinence I noticed were fetal dreams at 23 weeks. This still doesn't excuse them from being unwelcome visitors to an unwilling host. I feel sorrier for the fully functioning human mother than the fetus.

Originally Posted by MC.no.spin

If you read my post I refer to the radical left. Further, equal opportunity is code word for affirmitive action with your ilk, which is reverse racism, and strips white's rights of getting a job they are most qualified for. Your reference to sanctity of education is implying this is a liberal only value, which is ironic as the entire left wing sat on their hands when the good news of highest ever test scores by 4th and 8th graders was announced by President Bush at the State of the Union address:

I'm against affirmative action, but you still have to face the fact that blacks (or people w/black names the employer never saw) have lower chances of getting jobs than equally qualified whites. I'll post the study if you want.

I'm in favor of strengthening NCLB, as long as it's implemented nationally rather than state-by-state. It's inefficient right now.

Originally Posted by MC.no.spin

As for the safety of borders, who are you kidding? What has Kennedy and the rest of your friends done to make our borders safe? All they've done is erode away any penalty for hiring illegals, the very thing Reagan put in place to avoid the situation we are in now. Reagan wanted fines up to a million dollars for violating employers, Kennedy worked hard to cancel that. Did you watch the debates? Kucinich was offended they were even called illegals. They are "human beings" who should be allowed to come here in droves. Yeah, border safety.

Hiring non-citizens should be penalized. Illegal immigrants are illegal, and I have no problem calling them illegals. We call asian people 'Asians' and white people "whites". We call those who commit crime 'criminals'.

I'm conservative in places, but still pro-choice, and you don't seem to think of that as possible. Welcome to the real world (of the internet).

I apologize for the double-post, but Navy Pride's beliefs never cease to amaze me.

Originally Posted by Navy Pride

Most people in the field of science believe that life begins at conception...........

Most people in the field of gynecology? Could I see a little proof? I'm trying hard not to fall off my chair giggling right now.

Originally Posted by Navy Pride

Why is it that Scott Peterson got charged with 2 murders when he killed his wife and unborn fetus?

His wife presumably wanted to keep the baby. The baby was probably going to be born. If you kill a future President before they take office, I'm pretty sure it's still treason. That baby was going to have the high honor of becoming a person soon.

Originally Posted by Navy Pride

That is a cop out, I bet if it were possible to ask those unborn babies if they would rather be killed in the womb or born into a really hard life to a person they would say the latter.........

Of course, because a child would much rather be miserable than to avoid all the hardships he/she's birth would create.

Originally Posted by Navy Pride

Why is it that Scott Peterson got charged with 2 murders when he killed his wife and unborn fetus?

Because Lacey Peterson intended on giving birth to her child.

Originally Posted by Navy Pride

Most people in the field of science believe that life begins at conception...........

Even if they did believe this, I doubt they'd be against abortion.

IMO, life, of some sort, does begin at conception, as it is my belief that something must be living/alive in order to grow and mature.
Is a fetus a human? Undeniably so. Is it a human being, a person? No. Personhood is only established once a fetus has taken a breath. Then, it no longer relies on the mother to keep it alive. It becomes independant.

For as long as that fetus is dependant on the woman, she has the right to remove it from her body. This is not murder, because the fetus is not a person.
After the fetus is born, and has taken it's first breath, it is now a person, and is protected under the law.

The law is there to protect people, not fetuses.

Originally Posted by Bones

Well, if you can find one ready and able to talk, I'll be prepared to listen to it.

Sufficient Scruples Blog Archive Newest Talking Fetus: Humorless, Nonsensical, and Insomniac

For as long as that fetus is dependant on the woman, she has the right to remove it from her body. This is not murder, because the fetus is not a person.

It wouldn't be murder even if the fetus was a person.
Anyone has the right to remove an unwanted intruder from their body, regardless of the circumstances.
It's their body!
What's next, women have to lie there and submit to rape because their bodies are just some sort of communal vessels created to accommodate others, created for the convenience and utility of others?

Women are not slaves or domestic animals.

Their bodies, and their bodily resources, either belong to them- to be shared at will, voluntarily, or not at all- or they don't, in which case they are communal property.
There is no "halfway", no compromise.

Women either have complete bodily sovereignty, just as men do, or they have none.
Complete bodily sovereignty includes the right to control one's bodily functions, including one's reproductive functions.
Women are not stripped of their human rights simply because they engage in consensual sex.
They remain human beings with a full range of human rights, including the right to bodily autonomy.

To claim otherwise is to expose oneself as grossly misogynistic, and unworthy of serious debate.
__________

Originally Posted by Edify_Always_In_All_Ways

The only plausible evidence of sentinence I noticed were fetal dreams at 23 weeks. This still doesn't excuse them from being unwelcome visitors to an unwilling host. I feel sorrier for the fully functioning human mother than the fetus.



I'm against affirmative action, but you still have to face the fact that blacks (or people w/black names the employer never saw) have lower chances of getting jobs than equally qualified whites. I'll post the study if you want.

I'm in favor of strengthening NCLB, as long as it's implemented nationally rather than state-by-state. It's inefficient right now.



Hiring non-citizens should be penalized. Illegal immigrants are illegal, and I have no problem calling them illegals. We call asian people 'Asians' and white people "whites". We call those who commit crime 'criminals'.

I'm conservative in places, but still pro-choice, and you don't seem to think of that as possible. Welcome to the real world (of the internet).

You're not only not a radical left winger I wouldn't even bunch you in with the word "liberal."

You have assumed I am a bible thumping conservative on this point of pro-life. Let me give you my take on it.

I believe abortion is a tragedy. In the real world, when a close friend became pregnant, about a year ago, I urged her to keep the baby. She was leaning towards abortion, yet was with a steady boyfriend, could raise the child, etc. Further, I knew she was an emotional mess over aborting the baby and that this would fester her for the rest of her life. I gave her as much helpful information as possible, quelled her fears, and today she is the very proud mother of this baby boy.




So I am "pro-life", but not in a radical, dogmatic sense. My position is essentially that Roe v Wade was a mistake, and that the purposes of the 9th and 14th amendments were not to grant abortions to women. I feel it is a matter left up to the states. The 10th Amendment reserves these rights not specifically mentioned in the Constitution to the states and to the people. The Federal Government does not belong in this issue.

Further, the reason I bring up sentience and pain for the fetus is because I feel this is where I draw the line. Abortions past the first trimester are the real villainy and my main focus as to what needs to change. This is roughly 10 percent of abortions, but that is about 4 million such abortions in the last 35 years. A woman only needs to have stress over the baby to be considered to have "health concerns" that warrant such abortions. This needs to stop.

Originally Posted by Navy Pride

Most people in the field of science believe that life begins at conception...........

I'm not sure what you are responding to. I asked MC.no.spin to find me a fetus that talks and understands language. Are you taking up the challenge, NP? OK, NP, find me a fetus that talks and understands language. I'll wait.