You think you are superior .. ???

stevenb · 01-04-08, 02:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jallman

Yell all you want. I see no violation of the 4th amendment as the warrantless wiretapping was aimed directly at terrorism, heavy drug trafficking, and organized crime. Further, before the taps were admissible in court, the probable cause still had to be established after the fact.

It's not like the warrantless taps were roving from home to home listening to a teenager talk about whether she should or shouldn't give it up on prom night. The CIA isn't interested in how bowled a high game at your league on tuesday. The FBI isn't going on fishing expeditions listening to granny gossip about all three of her daughters' good for nothing husbands.

Yeah, everyone has a right to be safe and secure in their homes. No one has a right to traffic information over communications lines to conspire to commit crimes.

I think this is where you made your statement about it being okay to trounce on the fourth amendment as long as there was drugs involved.

Also...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jallman

Further, before the taps were admissible in court, the probable cause still had to be established after the fact.

Alot of the wiretaps that were "authorized" were never put in front of a court... even after the fact. Leaving only ideas of what they were actually fishing for when they performed the tap... because there was no oversite.... I think this is quite possibly one of the main reasons that most people are upset over it.

stevenb · 01-04-08, 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jallman

Am I supposed to be moved by the fact that the police screw up and ocassionally are crooked?

So you're in favor of giving them even more power to abuse, right?

Just admit that and we'll carry on.

jallman · 01-04-08, 02:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevenb

I think this is where you made your statement about it being okay to trounce on the fourth amendment as long as there was drugs involved.

No, still never said 4th amendment rights were out the window. If they get information by tapping an call to Columbia that results in the coast guard intercepting a Columbian drug trafficker and his shipment of cocaine in open water, I fail to see how any American citizens had their 4th amendment rights violated.

Quote:

Alot of the wiretaps that were "authorized" were never put in front of a court... even after the fact. Leaving only ideas of what they were actually fishing for when they performed the tap... because there was no oversite.... I think this is quite possibly one of the main reasons that most people are upset over it.

No, I think most people were upset by it because hysterics promoted the idea that your sunday afternoon call to grand daddy's nursing home was being listened to for no reason.

jallman · 01-04-08, 02:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevenb

So you're in favor of giving them even more power to abuse, right?

Just admit that and we'll carry on.

I am in favor of giving the authorities the tools they need to carry out their missions. I'm not admitting to any of your hyperbolized editorials of my statements.

stevenb · 01-04-08, 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jallman

No, still never said 4th amendment rights were out the window. If they get information by tapping an call to Columbia that results in the coast guard intercepting a Columbian drug trafficker and his shipment of cocaine in open water, I fail to see how any American citizens had their 4th amendment rights violated.

So what about the thousands of other people's conversations who were trolled to find out that shipment was happening?

No, I think most people were upset by it because hysterics promoted the idea that your sunday afternoon call to grand daddy's nursing home was being listened to for no reason.

No, most people are upset about it because of the lack of oversite and the lack of intention that was provided to anyone who was snooped upon. If anything this administration has taught us that they cannot be trusted, and I don't want to have to censor myself on my phone in a "free" country where I shouldn't have to.. because... they could possibly be listening.

stevenb · 01-04-08, 02:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jallman

I am in favor of giving the authorities the tools they need to carry out their missions. I'm not admitting to any of your hyperbolized editorials of my statements.

It's basically what you're saying in the fact that you're all for giving our rights away in the name of protection.

jallman · 01-04-08, 02:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevenb

Your mouth-foaming is doing nothing but gaining momentum. You need to show me where the wire-tapping was random, roving, and trolling. I'm pretty damned sure it was focused and pointed to get a mission accomplished.

jallman · 01-04-08, 02:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevenb

It's basically what you're saying in the fact that you're all for giving our rights away in the name of protection.

Another editorialization of my statement. Can you be honest or would it be best just to drop this conversation and not waste my time?

stevenb · 01-04-08, 02:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jallman

Your mouth-foaming is doing nothing but gaining momentum. You need to show me where the wire-tapping was random, roving, and trolling. I'm pretty damned sure it was focused and pointed to get a mission accomplished.

Being in the IT field... such devices are normally not used for "pointed" or "guided" targets...

EFF: AT&T/NSA Class Action FAQ

http://blog.wired.com/27bstroke6/200...istle-blo.html

Synopsis:

AT&T installed a device that duplicated traffic on their network and stored it. Where did this happen? In sanfrancisco... which isn't even really a global hub.

The device isn't smart, it can't decipher what traffic to copy.. it copies it all.

Falling back to your logic, if AT&T and other telecom companies didn't do anything wrong.. why are they pushing for retroactive immunity?

stevenb · 01-04-08, 02:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jallman

Another editorialization of my statement. Can you be honest or would it be best just to drop this conversation and not waste my time?

If anyone is the liar here it'd be you.

My position has stayed pretty much constant in this whole ordeal... The government and local police departments and such are overstepping their bounds and trampling our rights. This behavior is further protected by the Patriot Act and other bull**** legislation that fear mongers have pushed through congress and Senate in the name of "safety".

You're the one that has shifted from "they can do whatever they want as long as it's in the name of the war on <insert popular noun>"... to... "I'm in favor of providing them the tools to do their job."

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