bhkad

What needs to be included with your post is this:

1. Japanese soldiers DID cut the throats of innocent female civilians in WWII during the rape of Nanking, to name one instance.

2. The Twain quote applies to every war.

3. When Muslims are deceptive and pretend that there is no problem of Jihad then how can they be warmly embraced as a people?

If you want an example of a Muslim who is candid about Jihad but faithful to Islam, look at Dr. Zuhdi Jasser.

http://www.aifdemocracy.org/

__________________

OBL 11/24/02

Joe Hill

You reveal that you have not taken the time to check the sources I refer to. I am not so vain as to think that my opinion is so very important as the authorities that I cite such as Noam Chomsky et al. The MSM never or seldom lets the chief critics of US foreign policy speak unedited or unopposed by several interruptors. So the reaction to my posts is to be expected by those who still accept the unspoken imperialist assumptions of the US (i.e., why does the US have the right to tell any country what their nuclear policy should be. . .). Let's make it even simpler, shall we? Why shouldn't Cuba have the right to operate a military base in Florida if the US can do so in Guantanamo?

__________________
"We can have democracy in this country or we can have
great wealth in a few hands, but we can't have both.":
Louis D. Brandeis

oldreliable67

Wrong.

You sure you're not that vain? Your posts suggests otherwise, but thats just my impression.

You must read/view a different MSM.

Perhaps you should re-read, or perhaps read for the first time, the Monroe Doctrine and a few of the seminal papers on which our foreign policy has been based for oh, a 100 years or more. More specifically to the points you raise about (1) nuclear policy and (2) a foreign gov't operating a military base in Florida...

(1) nuclear policy: we don't have the right to tell any country what their nuclear policy should be. But when a country is a signatory to the NPT and then proceeds to give indications of violating that same treaty and simultaneously espouses the removal of regimes with whom we have self-defense treaties, it becomes quite a different matter. If the country in question is Iran, if we could be assured that Iran was truly seeking nuclear power for peaceful purposes, I, for one, would have absolutely no problem with it, and I doubt many others would either. Unfortunately, their actions and statements suggest much too strong a risk otherwise.

(2) If that foreign country has signed a permanent or multi-generational lease on a piece of property in Florida and we thereby become contractually obligated to permit their use of that property, we might well be forced to let a foreign gov't operate a military base in Florida.

Joe Hill

If you think the Monroe Doctrine, basically a self-righteous imperialist form of "might makes right" I can see why you miss the point that not only does US/Israel have nuclear capability, but countless weapons specifically for the purpose of threatening, coercing, and even using against civilian populations.You are naive indeed if you think that a US/Israeli nuclear attack will not somehow not affect Americans. Radiation sickness knows no borders.
We were contracturally obligated by innumerable treaties to respect the territorial rights of our own native population, but broke every one. Why? "might makes right."

__________________
"We can have democracy in this country or we can have
great wealth in a few hands, but we can't have both.":
Louis D. Brandeis

Joe Hill

War brings out the worst in people, especially the invaders and occupiers.

Twain was a member of the anti-Imperialists, and was writing specifically about the Cuba/Phillipine invasion.

When the West nakedly invades and occupies countries in the East from China (the Opium wars) to Iraq (the Oil wars) how can they be embraced by peace-loving people anywhere?

American Islamic Forum for Democracy

If you want an American Christian who is candid about the Monroe doctrine and Imperialism, read from thousands of American authors and statesmen. Gen. Smedley Butler is a good start:

Quote:

"I spent thirty-three years and four months in active military service... And during that period I spent most of my time being a high-class muscle man for big business, for Wall Street and for the bankers. In short, I was a racketeer, a gangster for capitalism...I helped make Mexico safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenue in. I helped purify Nicaragua for the international banking house of Brown Brothers... I brought light to the Dominican Republic for American sugar interests in 1916. I helped make Honduras "right" for American fruit companies in 1903. Looking back on it, I might have given Al Capone a few hints."

US Marine Corps Major General Smedley Butler

__________________
"We can have democracy in this country or we can have
great wealth in a few hands, but we can't have both.":
Louis D. Brandeis

akyron

So as long as you are not a woman or a student and willing to live in oppression then all is right eh?

Police Brutality in Iran against Women

Capture of a woman without a veil.




Regime Beats Students With Chains

Iranian Police Beat Down Amir Kabir University Students!

__________________

Joe Hill

This is more true in Saudi Arabia than in Iran. In Iran, head scarves are sufficient. So we attack Iran and kill the women and students you claim to be so concerned about? Makes a whole lotta sense.



Violence against women is a huge problem in the States and many other non-Muslim countries.

So which of these countries do we bomb and invade first?

__________________
"We can have democracy in this country or we can have
great wealth in a few hands, but we can't have both.":
Louis D. Brandeis

MSgt

Or the footage of Iranian families that live in oppression or terror? Perhaps Hollywood/media corporations should show the world images of Saddam giving water to a child? Perhaps Hitler singing a song in church? Perhaps Ahmenadejad should be portrayed as a tolerant soul who embraces the notion that people should be allowed to worship in different ways or his kindness towards the notion that homosexuals do exist in Iran or as the anti-terrorist funding individual many in the West are trying in vain to see him as?

You make the same mistakes so many of your kind make when you seek to alter our reality into something it is not. We do not discuss diplomacy with shopkeepers or peaceful everyday families. The term "man loves, men hate" applies. We conduct diplomacy (and go to war against) with leaders, governemnts, and regimes. Showing you images of peaceful German families in the early 1940s or peaceful Soviet families during the Cold War or peaceful Iranian families during today's escillating crisis will not make the issues that threaten go away.

Besides that, your entire perspective of hollywood or the media "villifying" an enemy is complete garbage. Consider the history of both:

Hollywood - Sixty years ago, the mainstream of hollywood was serving in the military or truly supporting it. So had our politicians. Where are today's John Waynes'? Or the Audey Murphys'? Even Elvis respected his duty to nation. Where are the movies like Sands of Iwo Jima, The Longest Day, or the Dirty Dozen (where Americans cheered the death of civilians being slaughtered at a dinner party in Germany by a dozen forgiven criminal soldiers)? Consumers at theaters used to be able to watch clips of the enemy before their feature attraction. Cartoons used to reflect the goodness of our troops and the evil doings of our enemies. Today we get movies that show the personal anguish (largely bull****) of survivor troops. We get to sum up the Vietnam Vet into the John Rambos' who come back to the states and vent on civilians or feel the need to go back to war......"Deer Hunter" anyone? The "Black Hawk Downs" that show American troops in ambush or the "Crimson Tides" that show an American naval oficer crazed into starting a nuclear holocaust. Of course, near and dear to our hearts is always the film like "Jarhead" that labels Marines as bloodthirsty creatures who are unable to cope with the fact that he didn't get to see the "pink mist" in Kuwait, yet is tender enough to cry over a dead comrade at home. Aside from Tillman, know any hollywood types or athletes that serve? I'm sure you know the Jane Fondas and the Sean Penns.

Media - Sixty years ago, the mainstream media machine was patriotic and pro-American. There were no exhausting news coverages of the comforts of POWs in the Pacific or coverage of dead civilians in the assault across Europe. There were no exxagerated stories of abuse or torture and there was no great conspiracy charges from the mainstream that villified our troops. Today, we see CNN falsely accuse U.S. forces of employing nerve gas in Indochina after not respecting the available facts, for which they apologized later and fired a few minor players in the story. CBS hosted Dan Rather (an established journalist who showed more care for his political leanings and influence "rather" than the truth). Today, we get outlandish accusations of the evils of our troops for "flushing" a Qu'ran in a toilet without any consideration of the humanitarian fact that Qu'ran's are allowed at all (find a Bible in a Middle Eastern prison). A good measure of depravity can be found by looking at the Americans who are all too eager to accuse FOX for being bias for not producing the unfair despicable untruths as CNNs implications and accusations. Here is another example of the depravity that exists; you complain about images that show the terror that exists within Iran, but how long did the images of the WTC bombing run before they were yanked off the air? Or how long did Abu-Ghraib photos of frat party hooligan antics grace our living rooms? Funny, how no call to pull these images off the air occurred, yet images showing the truth of Iran is too "bias." I wonder how many Iranian elites and Arabs are complaining that airings of American troop activity on their television sets are monoplozing air space that could be showing "peaceful every day families" in America.


The gulf between campus intellectual, politician, Hollywood starlett and the military has and is continuing to become ever wider. This means that the gap between the American public and their military will also widen. What we are left with today is an arrogance of those celebrities and politicians who have not worked for wages or served their country in uniform, but who are convinced they underdstand the workplace and warfare better than the lesser beings condemned to labor or fight do. The media has followed the politicians and the celebrities into this depravity. So when you seek to portray a media source as "villifying" and enemy, take a step back and look at the situation without the media's help. You may find that your complaint is largely ignorant.

For any media source to "villify" an enemy today, it would have to reject the long road the media has taken that has stopped at a location that merely produces apologies for the enemy and an outlook that they are citizens of a leftist world community and not Americans. In their world, even Al-Jazeera is a legitimate news source.

__________________

MSgt
Semper Fidelis
USMC

MSgt

The difference between the existence of abuse and the institutional approval of abuse is grand. I'm sure even you could understand this.

Our activities in the Middle East have a lot to do with humanitarian aid. But it is also has a lot to do with internal/external security (oil securities sure, but we were already getting oil so such lame default complaints don't exactly mesh). One does not exist without the other. I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that you aren't aware of the factors that exist in failing countries? Here are some....the restriction of the free flow of information, subjugation of women, a lack of emphasis placed on education, social inequality, and religious persecution. I will refrain from expounding on the damage each does (use your imagination). It is a fact that in countries where such social backwardness exists and is even celebrated under religious regimes and dictators, terrorism is a mainstream acceptance. And in a civilization where there are literally countless terror organizations mascarading as "revolutionaries, freedom fighters, libersations, etc," these humanitarian factors are extremely important.

__________________

MSgt
Semper Fidelis
USMC

Joe Hill

If the well-being of civilians and veils were the true concerns of Imperialists and Occupation apologists, they would be yelling for the invasion of Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, the UAE, etc. They would have been yelling for Sadaam's overthrow back when he was Poppy Bush's pal and was encouraged to attack Iran.
Nowhere else in the ME do the average people cower in terror as they do in occupied Iraq, where a bomb, missile, home invasion, truck or suicide bomb could snuff their lives. The fact that the death rate in Baghdad has gone down is due to the mass migration of people away from that city. Thanks to US rendition policies, Muslims all over the world are subject to the threat of kidnapping and torture by the US or one of its stooges. Talk about institutionalized approval of abuse. Now Bush wants to appoint an AG who doesn't know what torture is. Maybe the Congress should waterboard him so he knows. Watch FRONTLINE tonight on PBS.

__________________
"We can have democracy in this country or we can have
great wealth in a few hands, but we can't have both.":
Louis D. Brandeis