3-year-old raped by uncle, officials say

FallingPianos said:

I was unclear. my mistake.

what I was trying to say, is that even though a person might be capable of giving consent, the law recognizes that such a capability is useless if a person is not also able to withhold consent.

regardless of age, any child that understands sex and is able to speak, can give consent to sex. however, a child is not in a position where they can withhold consent from adults. therefore, the law finds any consent that a child gives to be invalid.

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right and this thread was started about a child. It kind off went off in different directions and everything I've said was with "adults" in mind, not children. I absolutely agree that children under certain ages can't consent at all. But, as an adult, I've had tons of sex while drunk and I've never been raped and I don't think cases where women are "unsure" if they were raped or not should be counted as rape nor do I think "being drunk" whilst having sex is "rape" as has been implied in many questionaires and it's why the number 1 in 4 isn't "really" a true account of "rape" because many included in the "have been raped" catagory might not agree that they have been raped.

talloulou said:

right and this thread was started about a child. It kind off went off in different directions and everything I've said was with "adults" in mind, not children. I absolutely agree that children under certain ages can't consent at all. But, as an adult, I've had tons of sex while drunk and I've never been raped and I don't think cases where women are "unsure" if they were raped or not should be counted as rape nor do I think "being drunk" whilst having sex is "rape" as has been implied in many questionaires and it's why the number 1 in 4 isn't "really" a true account of "rape" because many included in the "have been raped" catagory might not agree that they have been raped.

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I've also had sex while drunk, however it was always sex that I wanted.

what if you were drunk, but didn't want to be having sex with somebody? what if you were too drunk to be able to resist, verbally or otherwise? now try to imagine 2 strange men having sex with you while you were in that state.

do you really think they should be able to use the fact that you were drunk in their defense?

FallingPianos said:

I've also had sex while drunk, however it was always sex that I wanted.

what if you were drunk, but didn't want to be having sex with somebody? what if you were too drunk to be able to resist, verbally or otherwise? now try to imagine 2 strange men having sex with you while you were in that state.

do you really think they should be able to use the fact that you were drunk in their defense?

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No but I aslo don't think that we should be teaching college age women that if they're drunk and had sex that they were raped. Which it certainly seems like they're telling them in my state.

Many people mistakenly believe that "taking advantage" of a person who is drunk, on drugs, or passed out is not rape. According to both Idaho and Washington State laws, an individual cannot consent to sexual intercourse when intoxicated or drugged to the point that one cannot make clear, rational decisions. Nor can an individual give consent when s/he is passed out.

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Sexual Assault

“The law is very clear,” she said, an intoxicated person cannot give consent.

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Beta Theta Pi Fraternity - Washington State hosts sexual assault prevention seminar

Alcohol
When people hear the phrase "date rape drug," alcohol often is not what comes to mind. The statistics below show that a link between alcohol and campus sexual assaults is evident:
• 55 percent of female students and 75 percent of male students involved in acquaintance rape admit to having been drinking or using drugs when the incident occurred.
• 90 percent of all campus rapes occur when alcohol has been used by either the assailant or the victim.
• As many as 70 percent of college students admit to having engaged in sexual activity primarily as a result of being under the influence of alcohol or to having sex they would not have had if they had been sober.
Texas State - Student Health Center

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There's enough rhetoric and badly written law out there that it almost seems as if college age persons are being taught that "consent to sex" isn't valid when one or both parties is drunk. Alot of women are confused about whether or not they were raped and these women are going to health centers where they are being told, "Well if you were drunk then you were raped." In my mind this greatly underminds genuine "rape victims." You can be drunk and raped. Not all drunk sex constitutes rape and this rhetoric is fairly common place at least in my state but I think it's fairly common in colleges across the country. I also think most people are ignoring it or shrugging it off and lots of college persons are having lots of intoxicated sex. Many states say definitively that you can not consent to sex if you are intoxicated however many more say if you are mentally incapacitated and often times "drunkenness" can fall under that heading.

The fact that you might have sex while drunk that you wouldn't have had sober does NOT constitute rape, date rape, or otherwise. It constitutes bad judgement. This rhetoric is dangerous. Saying I wouldn't have fvcked you if I were sober does not mean you raped me. The very idea that someone would think that, that women are being told that, is frankly ludicrous.

talloulou said:

The fact that you might have sex while drunk that you wouldn't have had sober does NOT constitute rape, date rape, or otherwise. It constitutes bad judgement. This rhetoric is dangerous. Saying I wouldn't have fvcked you if I were sober does not mean you raped me. The very idea that someone would think that, that women are being told that, is frankly ludicrous.

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if both participants are drunk to the point of being unable to consent I would agree, since there is no way to distinguish between the perpetrator and the victim. you can't rape someone if you are incapable of consenting to the acts that constitute the rape.

but, this applies only if both parties are too drunk to give consent, and only if neither party has given any indication verbal or otherwise, that they do not want to be having sex.

FallingPianos said:

if both participants are drunk to the point of being unable to consent I would agree, since there is no way to distinguish between the perpetrator and the victim. you can't rape someone if you are incapable of consenting to the acts that constitute the rape.

but, this applies only if both parties are too drunk to give consent, and only if neither party has given any indication verbal or otherwise, that they do not want to be having sex.

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These acts constitute sexual assault when they are attempted or committed through force, threat, or intimidation; when the perpetrator has been informed that his/her actions are unwanted: or through the use of the victim’s incapacity or helplessness caused by alcohol or other drugs (e.g., when the victim is too intoxicated to consent). Alcohol or other drug use by the perpetrator does not diminish his or her responsibility for the assault

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It would seem like if they're both drunk then neither of them can be consenting and by default they're both getting raped. But usually the women is going to be viewed as the "victim" due to her inability to consent while the guys "drukenness" is not a good excuse.

Alcohol as rape’s facilitator

Those familiar with acquaintance rape agree alcohol cannot be overlooked as a factor. Jill said she was “drinking heavily” the night she was raped. Alcohol inhibits the ability to accurately perceive what is going on, and to react to it. It can also increase aggressiveness.

“I think alcohol is a huge part of the problem,” Allen said.

“I don’t think teen boys or girls understand that if you’re drunk, you cannot give consent. Since rape is defined as the one who’s forcing the issue, versus the one who’s more passive, it’s not always men raping women, but that’s usually the way it happens.”

http://www.montrosepress.com/articles/2006/12/10/local_news/1.txt

Even if one person is voluntarily intoxicated, however, complications can arise in many situations. For the recipient of sexual advances, the decrease in self-restraint and a more thoughtless and carefree attitude toward intimacy can lead to sexual intimacy that is not preplanned.

Intoxicated people may also appear to give consent by appearing to enjoy what they are doing and actively participating even though ultimately they may not remember what happened (if they are in a blackout state). When they look back on the encounter, they may feel they have been violated, although at no time did they act as if they were being violated and in fact may have been actively and enthusiastically participating. For example, a person may be consenting to the sexual activity just because he or she is intoxicated. If that person were sober, he or she might not agree to have sex. In situations like these, the intoxication level of the victim can contribute to the accusation of sexual assault.

If the initiator of sexual intimacy is also intoxicated, the situation is further complicated. First, their ability to make valid decisions about consent or nonconsent is compromised. If both people are compromised, finding out exactly what happened during the sexual encounter is more difficult. If legal action is initiated and neither person has a clear idea of what happened, guilt or innocence becomes more difficult to determine. In any case, intoxication of the alleged assailant is a very weak legal defense against allegations of abuse.

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Sexual Assault

more....

Women who are seeking sexual interactions may be doing so for reasons other than a genuine interest in the man. They may be intoxicated and acting rashly or they may desire sex in general. Many cases have been reported where women have had a specific intention to have sex with a particular man for the wrong reasons and with bad intentions. Women in any of these situations can engage in seductive behaviors that men find hard to resist, especially if they are intoxicated.

Afterwards, the women's specific intention, guilt, or remorse can lead to an accusation of sexual assault when no assault occurred at the time the encounter took place. If the woman characterizes this situation as a sexual assault, the man is almost always charged with sexual assault, even though the actual interaction may have been initiated and controlled by the women. Many men who would never engage in sexual assault can be drawn into situations such as these quite easily.

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this is the type of nonsense I'm talking about when I say some cases of "rape" are just about sex. We're calling it "rape" but really in many cases it's a bit of a stretch and these men probably were interested in "sex" and not power and this tendency to always paint the women as childish victims has frankly lost it's charm and it really does undermine the women who are true victims of violent assualt.

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talloulou said:

It would seem like if they're both drunk then neither of them can be consenting and by default they're both getting raped. But usually the women is going to be viewed as the "victim" due to her inability to consent while the guys "drukenness" is not a good excuse.

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usually, when people talk about perpetrator making excuses about being drunk, the implication is that the perpetrator wasn't in control of their actions and therefore should not be held responsible for them - regardless of whether or not the victim resisted.

however; old gender stereotypes and myths that men aren't raped are very pervasive and need to be stopped.

talloulou said:

this is the type of nonsense I'm talking about when I say some cases of "rape" are just about sex. We're calling it "rape" but really in many cases it's a bit of a stretch and these men probably were interested in "sex" and not power and this tendency to always paint the women as childish victims has frankly lost it's charm and it really does undermine the women who are true victims of violent assualt.

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I'm probably going to get torn into for posting this, but I totally see where you are coming from on this when I really stop and think about it. I think a lot of the problem here is we are having different conversations...correct me if I am wrong, but I see you having a conversation about how we incorrectly classify irresponsible sexual activity as rape and other people (myself included) have been adamantly talking about true rape when it occurs.

I think a lot of the real misogyny in this conversation centers around automatically assuming that the poor girl doesn't have the capability or the right to exert her sexuality when she is impaired like a guy does, so we default to a rape scenario in an effort to keep the woman in a victim status.

And you are absolutely correct; that attitude does diminish the plight of women who are assaulted (whether by a stranger or an acquaintance; through violent aggression or violent subterfuge). The problem I am seeing is that we cannot take any claim of rape lightly no matter the situation as rape is such a vile intrusion that it is better to sift through a hundred questionable rapes with full sincerity than to let one actual rape go unpunished.

jallman said:

I'm probably going to get torn into for posting this, but I totally see where you are coming from on this when I really stop and think about it. I think a lot of the problem here is we are having different conversations...correct me if I am wrong, but I see you having a conversation about how we incorrectly classify irresponsible sexual activity as rape and other people (myself included) have been adamantly talking about true rape when it occurs.

I think a lot of the real misogyny in this conversation centers around automatically assuming that the poor girl doesn't have the capability or the right to exert her sexuality when she is impaired like a guy does, so we default to a rape scenario in an effort to keep the woman in a victim status.

And you are absolutely correct; that attitude does diminish the plight of women who are assaulted (whether by a stranger or an acquaintance; through violent aggression or violent subterfuge). The problem I am seeing is that we cannot take any claim of rape lightly no matter the situation as rape is such a vile intrusion that it is better to sift through a hundred questionable rapes with full sincerity than to let one actual rape go unpunished.

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Actually, there was an interesting article in the paper today (Seattle Times) about how female child-abusers get off more easily than men. Apparently, they claim to have "relationships", or the boy is assumed to have gotten lucky.

Your post made me think of it, because it seems based around the idea that women are more likely to be viewed as victims.

jallman said:

I'm probably going to get torn into for posting this, but I totally see where you are coming from on this when I really stop and think about it. I think a lot of the problem here is we are having different conversations...correct me if I am wrong, but I see you having a conversation about how we incorrectly classify irresponsible sexual activity as rape and other people (myself included) have been adamantly talking about true rape when it occurs.

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EXACTLY. I would never tell a woman who claimed she was raped that she in fact wasn't. That's not my job to figure out and I don't have all the details. But the 1 in 4 number so often quoted is somewhat misleading as many of the women included are those who have answered surveys agreeing that yeah they've had drunken sex that they wouldn't have had sober, ect. Misleading questions where responses are included in all the "Rape" info out there. On college campuses, feel free to check a wide variety of college websites, it is often stated that drunk women can't consent to sex due to their intoxication. But not all drunk women are being raped when getting laid. Not all women consider it rape when they've slept with someone drunk that they wouldn't have bedded sober. I'm hesitant to talk about true "RAPE" vs. "not really rape" in this discussion as it isn't my aim, goal, or business to decide who was and who wasn't raped. Drunk women CAN be raped, I know that.

My main point is statistically when you are talking about the 1 in 4 number with all different types of "date rape" and "gray rape" including a wide variety of behaviors and situations where even the women don't necessarily agree there was a rape you CAN'T genuinely say that RAPE isn't about SEX and that all rapists are violent offenders who get off on power. There's a huge difference between the guy who happens upon a passed out women he knows and proceeds to rape her while she's unconscious vs. the guy who beds a drunk woman with her "drunken consent" only to have her be upset about it later and have her icky feeling validated as "rape" by rape centers and college health centers based on her intoxication and consequently her "consent" is invalid. But when rape is discussed "statistically" no distinction is made between the two. None whatsoever. Both scenarios are called "date rape" or "gray rape."

I think a lot of the real misogyny in this conversation centers around automatically assuming that the poor girl doesn't have the capability or the right to exert her sexuality when she is impaired like a guy does, so we default to a rape scenario in an effort to keep the woman in a victim status.

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Right. I find it positively insulting that there's tons of info being handed out and even "legislation" that states I can't consent to sex if I'm drunk. I'm as capable of a rolling good time in bed while completely drunk as any man is and how dare anyone claim my consent in those situations is invalid in order to help some other woman come to the conclusion that she wasn't responsible for her behavior and drunken sex.

And you are absolutely correct; that attitude does diminish the plight of women who are assaulted (whether by a stranger or an acquaintance; through violent aggression or violent subterfuge). The problem I am seeing is that we cannot take any claim of rape lightly no matter the situation as rape is such a vile intrusion that it is better to sift through a hundred questionable rapes with full sincerity than to let one actual rape go unpunished.

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I agree no claim of rape EVER should be taken lightly. However women who are unsure about whether they were raped or not should not be brought to the conclusion that they were by default due to intoxication. Women who've had memory loss or "black outs" and can't remember what happened should have their uncertainty investigated but their "lack of memory" can't equal "rape" all by itself. Also we should put a stop to this nonsense where college women are handed surveys asking them totally loaded misleading questions in order to put them in the "has been raped catagory" to get this 1 in 4 number we love so much. If a woman answers NO to the question, "Have you ever been raped," then NO is the god damn answer and no matter what other questions she answers you can't turn her into a rape victim statistically against her will. That's bull$hit and it implies that women are too childish to ascertain whether or not they've been violently assaulted.

My main point is statistically when you are talking about the 1 in 4 number with all different types of "date rape" and "gray rape" including a wide variety of behaviors and situations where even the women don't necessarily agree there was a rape you CAN'T genuinely say that RAPE isn't about SEX and that all rapists are violent offenders who get off on power.

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Does anyone have the statistics for the percentage of men who are rapists?

If even 1 in every 100 men is a rapist (and I think that is a generous estimate) that means each rapist has an average of 25 victims.

Panache said:

Does anyone have the statistics for the percentage of men who are rapists?

If even 1 in every 100 men is a rapist (and I think that is a generous estimate) that means each rapist has an average of 25 victims.

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Oh you should do the research. By many studies done 50% of men are likely to rape and have low rape empathy. However you have to read each study carefully. The vast majority of men say they wouldn't rape a women however when asked leading questions like:

Would you have sex with a women who has been drinking?

Do you ever coerce a woman into having sex?

The men involved in the studies are often given hypothetical situations such as:

So and so has said she wants to wait to have sex till she's married however each "sexual encounter" involves her mate encouraging her to go further and further despite her previously stated objections to sex before marriage.

So and so have been drinking. Sally is clearly drunk is it okay to have sex with her?

Do you think you are more likely to have sex if the woman you are out with is drinking or doing drugs?

Do you look at clothing styles as an invitation, ect....

Depending on how many answer these questions they are given low rape IQ's and thus a high liklihood of raping.

Women too are statistically unlikely to answer these hypotheticals correctly. In other words most studies show that "scenarios" that meet the legal definition of rape in certain states are not viewed as rape by a majority of women.

The Federal Bureau of Investigators legal definition is "carnal knowledge of a female forcibly and against her consent" (U.S.D.O.J., 1995). Women need to understand that being pressured by someone into having sexual activity with him, even if he is someone she knows, it is still rape, a very serious crime. Also, a woman who is intoxicated, either by alcohol and/or drugs, is not considered to have given "legal consent" to any form of sexual activity.

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Note is says "a woman" nothing about drunk men not being able to consent. Also pressure isn't clearly defined. Pressure isn't force. Peer pressure to do something doesn't mean you aren't ultimately responsible for what you've done so this "pressure" crap is just that crap. We can't confuse pressure and force as they are not the same.
Acquaintance rape on college and university campuses College Student Journal - Find Articles

Statistics

A survey from the United States Bureau of Justice reported that in three-quarters of all rapes and sexual assaults against women, the perpetrator is know to the victim (U.S.O.O.J., 1995). A college survey conducted by the National Victim Center reported that one in four college women have been raped or suffered attempted rape (Bureau of Justice, 1992). In another college survey, half of the college men reported that they engaged in some form of sexual aggression on a date (Bureau of Justice, 1995). These reports indicate that young women are at considerable risk of becoming a victim of an acquaintance rapist.

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Now what they aren't telling you is that the 1 in 4 women don't agree they were raped. They also aren't telling you that 50% of college men DID NOT say specifically that they are sexually aggressive on a date. They answered questions and then it was decided for them that they are sexually agressive. The study is also deciding for the women which ones were raped and then they go on about how rape is so unreported. Well yeah there are numerous reasons but one big one is that many of the 1 in 4 wouldn't, themselves, call their situation rape.
What kind of men are aggressive sexually:

The Acquaintance Rapist

Unfortunately, one cannot identify an acquaintance rapist on the basis of his appearance. He could be anyone, from a classmate, a science laboratory partner, a boyfriend, or just the nice guy that lives in the apartment next door. While acquaintance rapist cannot be identified by their appearance, they do engage in certain behaviors in order to win the confidence and trust of their victims. The primary goal of the acquaintance rapist is to increase the victim's vulnerability. He is highly manipulative and may make such promises to her as "pinning," engagement, love, and even marriage. He may also choose to use alcohol and/or drugs in order to incapacitate the victim, rendering her incapable of offering him any resistance during his sexual assault. The acquaintance rapists also significantly increases the victim's vulnerability by manipulating her into a situation where she will be alone with him. This can be achieved by being alone with her at her or his residence or in a car. Even if she is at a fraternity party, or a sport's event where there are many other people around, he still could take her into a room, or a secluded place outside, where she is ultimately alone with him.

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So in other words aggressive men are men who hit on women who are drinking, men who buy drinks for women, men who invite women to go anywhere alone with them, men who tell women they want to get married or they're in love. All these things are "signs of aggressiveness."

The men may have been asked questions like have you ever told a woman you loved her when you didn't? Stupid $hit like that which while it's less than honorable it's not a sign that you're a rapist. Buying a woman a drink might be manipulative it certainly isn't "sexually aggressive" unless you're spiking it.

But anyway yeah according to most of the studies I've seen about 50% of men have a low rape IQ and thus are highly likely to "rape" or be "sexually aggressive. "

The Federal Bureau of Investigators legal definition is "carnal knowledge of a female forcibly and against her consent" (U.S.D.O.J., 1995). Women need to understand that being pressured by someone into having sexual activity with him, even if he is someone she knows, it is still rape, a very serious crime. Also, a woman who is intoxicated, either by alcohol and/or drugs, is not considered to have given "legal consent" to any form of sexual activity.

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Why do women "need to understand" that? What are the consequences of not understanding that? Going through life blissfully unaware that she was the "helpless" vicitim of a "violent" crime, simply because a guy pressured her into have sex even after she had told him she was saving herself for marriage?

Why don't men "need to understand" that any woman who pressures them into having sex before they are 100% sure that they are ready is a rapist? Thats as misogynist as it gets.

Come on... this is straight from the FBI too.