FallingPianos

usually, when people talk about perpetrator making excuses about being drunk, the implication is that the perpetrator wasn't in control of their actions and therefore should not be held responsible for them - regardless of whether or not the victim resisted.

however; old gender stereotypes and myths that men aren't raped are very pervasive and need to be stopped.

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jallman

I'm probably going to get torn into for posting this, but I totally see where you are coming from on this when I really stop and think about it. I think a lot of the problem here is we are having different conversations...correct me if I am wrong, but I see you having a conversation about how we incorrectly classify irresponsible sexual activity as rape and other people (myself included) have been adamantly talking about true rape when it occurs.

I think a lot of the real misogyny in this conversation centers around automatically assuming that the poor girl doesn't have the capability or the right to exert her sexuality when she is impaired like a guy does, so we default to a rape scenario in an effort to keep the woman in a victim status.

And you are absolutely correct; that attitude does diminish the plight of women who are assaulted (whether by a stranger or an acquaintance; through violent aggression or violent subterfuge). The problem I am seeing is that we cannot take any claim of rape lightly no matter the situation as rape is such a vile intrusion that it is better to sift through a hundred questionable rapes with full sincerity than to let one actual rape go unpunished.

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Prayer and blasphemy...the two are so narrowly separated in these trying times.

Thelost1

Actually, there was an interesting article in the paper today (Seattle Times) about how female child-abusers get off more easily than men. Apparently, they claim to have "relationships", or the boy is assumed to have gotten lucky.

Your post made me think of it, because it seems based around the idea that women are more likely to be viewed as victims.

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Emphasis added.

"The religion of one age is the literary entertainment of the next."
~Emerson

talloulou

EXACTLY. I would never tell a woman who claimed she was raped that she in fact wasn't. That's not my job to figure out and I don't have all the details. But the 1 in 4 number so often quoted is somewhat misleading as many of the women included are those who have answered surveys agreeing that yeah they've had drunken sex that they wouldn't have had sober, ect. Misleading questions where responses are included in all the "Rape" info out there. On college campuses, feel free to check a wide variety of college websites, it is often stated that drunk women can't consent to sex due to their intoxication. But not all drunk women are being raped when getting laid. Not all women consider it rape when they've slept with someone drunk that they wouldn't have bedded sober. I'm hesitant to talk about true "RAPE" vs. "not really rape" in this discussion as it isn't my aim, goal, or business to decide who was and who wasn't raped. Drunk women CAN be raped, I know that.

My main point is statistically when you are talking about the 1 in 4 number with all different types of "date rape" and "gray rape" including a wide variety of behaviors and situations where even the women don't necessarily agree there was a rape you CAN'T genuinely say that RAPE isn't about SEX and that all rapists are violent offenders who get off on power. There's a huge difference between the guy who happens upon a passed out women he knows and proceeds to rape her while she's unconscious vs. the guy who beds a drunk woman with her "drunken consent" only to have her be upset about it later and have her icky feeling validated as "rape" by rape centers and college health centers based on her intoxication and consequently her "consent" is invalid. But when rape is discussed "statistically" no distinction is made between the two. None whatsoever. Both scenarios are called "date rape" or "gray rape."

Right. I find it positively insulting that there's tons of info being handed out and even "legislation" that states I can't consent to sex if I'm drunk. I'm as capable of a rolling good time in bed while completely drunk as any man is and how dare anyone claim my consent in those situations is invalid in order to help some other woman come to the conclusion that she wasn't responsible for her behavior and drunken sex.

I agree no claim of rape EVER should be taken lightly. However women who are unsure about whether they were raped or not should not be brought to the conclusion that they were by default due to intoxication. Women who've had memory loss or "black outs" and can't remember what happened should have their uncertainty investigated but their "lack of memory" can't equal "rape" all by itself. Also we should put a stop to this nonsense where college women are handed surveys asking them totally loaded misleading questions in order to put them in the "has been raped catagory" to get this 1 in 4 number we love so much. If a woman answers NO to the question, "Have you ever been raped," then NO is the god damn answer and no matter what other questions she answers you can't turn her into a rape victim statistically against her will. That's bull$hit and it implies that women are too childish to ascertain whether or not they've been violently assaulted.

Panache

Does anyone have the statistics for the percentage of men who are rapists?

If even 1 in every 100 men is a rapist (and I think that is a generous estimate) that means each rapist has an average of 25 victims.

talloulou

Oh you should do the research. By many studies done 50% of men are likely to rape and have low rape empathy. However you have to read each study carefully. The vast majority of men say they wouldn't rape a women however when asked leading questions like:

Would you have sex with a women who has been drinking?

Do you ever coerce a woman into having sex?

The men involved in the studies are often given hypothetical situations such as:

So and so has said she wants to wait to have sex till she's married however each "sexual encounter" involves her mate encouraging her to go further and further despite her previously stated objections to sex before marriage.

So and so have been drinking. Sally is clearly drunk is it okay to have sex with her?

Do you think you are more likely to have sex if the woman you are out with is drinking or doing drugs?

Do you look at clothing styles as an invitation, ect....

Depending on how many answer these questions they are given low rape IQ's and thus a high liklihood of raping.

Women too are statistically unlikely to answer these hypotheticals correctly. In other words most studies show that "scenarios" that meet the legal definition of rape in certain states are not viewed as rape by a majority of women.

talloulou

Note is says "a woman" nothing about drunk men not being able to consent. Also pressure isn't clearly defined. Pressure isn't force. Peer pressure to do something doesn't mean you aren't ultimately responsible for what you've done so this "pressure" crap is just that crap. We can't confuse pressure and force as they are not the same.
Acquaintance rape on college and university campuses College Student Journal - Find Articles

Now what they aren't telling you is that the 1 in 4 women don't agree they were raped. They also aren't telling you that 50% of college men DID NOT say specifically that they are sexually aggressive on a date. They answered questions and then it was decided for them that they are sexually agressive. The study is also deciding for the women which ones were raped and then they go on about how rape is so unreported. Well yeah there are numerous reasons but one big one is that many of the 1 in 4 wouldn't, themselves, call their situation rape.
What kind of men are aggressive sexually:




So in other words aggressive men are men who hit on women who are drinking, men who buy drinks for women, men who invite women to go anywhere alone with them, men who tell women they want to get married or they're in love. All these things are "signs of aggressiveness."

The men may have been asked questions like have you ever told a woman you loved her when you didn't? Stupid $hit like that which while it's less than honorable it's not a sign that you're a rapist. Buying a woman a drink might be manipulative it certainly isn't "sexually aggressive" unless you're spiking it.

But anyway yeah according to most of the studies I've seen about 50% of men have a low rape IQ and thus are highly likely to "rape" or be "sexually aggressive. "

Panache

Why do women "need to understand" that? What are the consequences of not understanding that? Going through life blissfully unaware that she was the "helpless" vicitim of a "violent" crime, simply because a guy pressured her into have sex even after she had told him she was saving herself for marriage?

Why don't men "need to understand" that any woman who pressures them into having sex before they are 100% sure that they are ready is a rapist? Thats as misogynist as it gets.

Come on... this is straight from the FBI too.