Jenin

Me want peace!

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"A child becomes a man when he knows what came before him" -- Anonymous
"Conquerors, my son, consider as true history only what they themselves have fabricated"
http://users.ox.ac.uk/~ssfc0005/The%...ut%201948.html

CaptainCourtesy

I promised myself I would no longer post, or participate in any way in the ME Forum due to the absolute inaccuracies and hateful comments I've been noticing. I am making this one, final, post to state the following, obvious facts. If there was a plan for significant Israeli expansion, it would have happened long ago. The Arab countries are no match, militarily, for Israel, even as a group. Why has the violence in the ME continued? Only one reason. Israel wants peace. If they did not, there would be no more Arab countries and therefore, no more violence. Israel has never proclaimed to wanting the destruction of any Arab country; I dare anyone to show where something like that was ever in their charter or constitution. Can many Arab countries say the same? There is no "Zionist expansion" plan and any claims of such are nothing more than hate speech, spewed by those who are akin to Nazis.

There is no ethnic cleansing of Palestinians. If Israel wanted the Palestinians gone, they'd be gone. There are plenty of Palestinian Arabs living peaceably in Israel. Most, not all, Palestinians left during the War of 1948 of their own volition, either because they didn't want to get caught in the crossfire, or they were told to by Arab leaders. I have documented this, several times in several threads, over the past year. The ethnic cleansing argument is a smoke screen for Palestinians refusing to take any responsibility for the position they are in. Israel is not blameless. But Arab behavior is the cause of the bulk of the problems in the ME, today.

One thing that participating in the ME Forums has taught/done for me. When I started posting here, I was pro-Israeli, but also pro-Palestinian. From what I have read from those that have argued the pro-Palestinian POV, I have learned that there is no compromise, that there are distortions, hate, and no responsibility. It has certainly caused my stance to drift away from support of the Palestinian cause. Those of you on that side offer no compromise or understanding of the pro-Israeli position and have only showed me that any compromise could be severely taken advantage of. I can no longer support a position that is so extremist as to be unwilling to recognize their fault in things. Those of you fighting for Palestinian rights may want to learn from this. Your style is hateful, obnoxious, inaccurate, and pushes moderates, like myself away. If you are trying to draw people to your cause, you are doing a pretty poor job. Rethink how you present your position.

Call this what you will. I will no longer post in this forum.

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"Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

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Volker

The pro-Palestinian side is doing good in this Middle East forum, I remember a time, when almost everyone who was saying something moderate has been attacked by self-appointed pro-Israelis. This situation changed and this is what pro-Palestinians achieved here. The quality went up, too.

The situation is actually better for moderates here now than it was before.

Shayah

I agree with your post and sentiments 100%. I used to read this ME forum frequently and post here occasionally, but it has decidedly devolved into a total waste of my internet time.

My sister departed from this ME forum months ago in disgust. Captain Courtesy has done likewise, and I also elect to leave. I will follow my sister to a different ME forum where the discussions are very honest, always amicable, and by and large forward looking. This ME forum has become so distorted and broken that I believe all Jewish/Israeli DP members have opted out.

I would advise anyone and everyone interested in honest discussions of ME issues to look somewhere else. If you're tired of dealing with the abysmal historical distortions, the obviously biased sources, and the formulistic propaganda that have ruined this forum, simply leave. Blessedly, this is my final post in this particular forum.

.האלוהים לאידאט אותי למספואים יותר ירוקים
Todah veShalom ~ Shayah

DivineComedy

At what cost?

MSgt

Each religious movement took a stab at defining God. Compare the prescriptions of all three messages. There is only one "turn the other cheek" message among them. You tell me what it looks like.

Then why have even you invoked God in this struggle? Why does every extremist who rejects modernism invoke God in their attributions to the struggle? Why is every sermon and letter issued about it come with an overwhleming amount of religious validation?

It was only a just cause when Palestinians rejected the views of other Arabs and Persians who saw it as the next Crusade, which didn't last long. How many radicals and extremists refer to the "Crusaders" when describing America and Israel? The distortion between a just cause and religion is exactly why there has been so much added confusion and ferociousness to this....and this has been an Arab evolution.

Hmmmm, yet we also financed Palesintians as they did very little to build a society while focusing more on non-peaceful co-existence. Since when is America supposed to turn its backs on alies to suit the needs of religious zealots who can only live with the knowledge that Islam owns Jerusalem?

That came later. My criticism towards him is that he allowed Khomeini to kick off the internal Islamic radical war that would escellate into an international phenomenon later.

Got figures? Something that can tell us who has given Palestinians more financial aid over the last sixty years?

Why do the Palestinians continue to need massive infusions of charity? Why is it that despite all of the money thrown at Palestinians by globe member states, the begging bowl continues to be in hand? And why, since Muslims are so concerned about Palestinian homes and not the religious stand point, did a financial crisis resume after the EU and the US cut off aid recently? Hell, even Israel was given money to Palestinians as their radicals use it to purchase rockets. Maybe it's time Palestinians started doing for their society instead of allowing it to crumble around them and blaming others for not taking care of them. They received in the partition as well.

I stated as much, but you missed my point. I stated that it was not America that was "instrumental" in creating Israel, immediately armed it, and then armed the Arabs against it, which escallated everything. Though America is the considered "evil" behind it all by Muslims throughout the Middle East who are indoctrinated to it. Provide yourself with references. Here are mine...

1) It was not Americans that was "instrumental" in this creation.

a. - The division was to take effect on the date of British withdrawal from the Mandate Territory of Palestine. "Both" the United States and Soviet Union supported the resolution. Link

b. - The United Nations General Assembly enjoyed the support of the Soviet Union and its Eastern European satellite Governments in the creation of Israel. Josef Stalin gambled that the new Jewish State would be a bulwark against British imperialism. The US President Truman, despite State Department advice and Department of Defense pressure,
supported the Partition Plan, and ensured its passage. America was reluctant, while the Soviet Union fully supported. Link

2) The Soviet Union was the chief supporter of Israel against the Arabs until 1955.

a. - With the immediate civil struggles between Jews and Arabs in 1948, the situation of insecurity across the country affected the Arab population quite visibly. This situation caused the USA to retract their support for the Partition plan, thus encouraging the Arab League to believe that the Palestinians, reinforced by the Arab Liberation Army, could put an end to the partition plan. The British however.... Link

b. - Although the Middle East conflict never totally fit into a neatly polarized Cold War pattern, the Arab-Israeli conflict was for the most part sucked into the larger East/West confrontation. After a brief period (l947-51), in which the Soviet Union supported Israel when it was attacked by then Western-oriented Arab countries (mainly Egypt, Syria, Iraq and Jordan), that opposed the l947 United Nations General Assembly resolution for the partition of the British Mandate of Palestine into a Jewish and an Arab state, Moscow and its Warsaw Pact allies basically supported the Arab side in the wars against Israel in l956, l967, and l973, as well as during the Israeli invasion of Lebanon in l982. Link

3) The Soviet Union began arming Arabs in 1955.

a. - In 1955 the first Egyptian-Soviet arms deal took place, disguised as a Egyptian-Czech transaction, an event which had a seriously destabilizing impact on the regional arms race. Immediately after Nasser made his 1955 arms deal, Israel appealed to the United States — not for a gift of arms, but for the right to purchase them. Link

b. - The transfer of arms form an industrialized nation to a third World country is a common feature of international foreign relations. The first such transfer of notable scale occurred in 1955 when the Soviet Union began shipping large quanities of modern arms to Egypt. This transfer, known as the Czech arms deal, is widely recognized to have been a turning point in the relative influence of the Soviet Union and the United States in the Middle East. Link

c. - Later, France would assume the duties as chief arms supporter to Israel. And not until 1967, America would assume the role as chief supporter from France. Link

And once again, you go back to trying to use imperfect acts to define the issue. I absolutely refuse to allow your arguments of Human Rights offenses by Israel that have usually been the result of outside aggression while Arabs launch rockets into civilian populations and justify it under lies, deceits, and religion. As long as Israel feel that it must protect itself, Palestinians will continue to be the victims of human rights offenses. Such is the result of the war Arabs started.

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MSgt
Semper Fidelis
USMC

MSgt

Feels the same to me.

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MSgt
Semper Fidelis
USMC

MSgt

Then start with your own society. Ever wonder why a country across the ocean has been the most instrumental in holding back the violence? Notice which country brought the hand shake between Egypt and Israel. Shouldn't this role be more suited to Muslim nations? Muslims do not want the kind of peace that sees a co-existence. History contradicts any pretended sincerity. While America extends financial aid to both sides, Muslim nations finance only one and encourage a continued violence. And why would Muslim nations want to see Palestinians do great things for themselves by creating their own "free" society? Could it be because they don't even endorse such things for their own societies?

Ever notice how the first line of defense for Arabs and Persians is to declare that Jews live peacefully in Muslim nations? Are we supposed to be ignorant and not understand that this is so because Jews are welcome as long as it is a Muslim government that sits on high? Israel and all the "inhumane" criticism given to it by Muslims would be completely ignored, were it a Muslim government.

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MSgt
Semper Fidelis
USMC

EAGLE1

Well I can give you that one must accept the 1948 UN decision, however atrociously one sided it was.
As for whether the west bank is occupied or disputed I'll simply point you to the international court.

Pack a court? Huh? I suppose you guys can skew the UN council too, so we're even.
*****

camel's legs, christmas eve etc etc. I suppose given your record you were probably an anti-semite jew hater then but when it became unfashionable you went with the times and became an arab hater. Its all good as long as you have someone to hate.

I doubt anyone would be taking advice from someone who's best term to describe them is 'barbarians'.

EAGLE1

Are you serious?
No previous occupier had ever stolen their lands (the Isrealis themselves) or either given a vastly disproportionate amount to a minority group being let in large numbers (the British and the UN).
No theyre victims after being coralled by the very people taking their land from them into little bits and having their country built over and claimed as a jewish place. All arab violence is after that fact.


In 1948 the momentum of ethnic cleansing ran out of steam and since then the world has been looking with increasing clarity at the area despite its impotence. The Isrealis, always very aware of the need for good publicity, has been happy to expand either by creating the conditions for conflict so it can gain more land or simply expanding slowly, houses by house, neighbourhood by neighborhood.
I agree you probably would Gunny, youd probably applaud the new land, cleared of its previous inhabitants on which you could build your new house on.
Why not? Those words and dreams have a long history, are extensive throughout Isreali society and the results are there for everyone to see.

'A wall would have offerred Israelis the same headache from Arabs'? Huh?


Everybody's got extremists Gunny, some happen to have been at the head of a group of people with real military power. They also look exactly like the rest.
However, despite that, I will trust the average Isreali to be a decent person.

No what I call bigoted is according to the definition. Please dont go into another conflict that you have little idea of.


In what sense does the existence of a conspiracy theory delete the newly built settlement on the hill side?
Youll find most Pals just want their homes back or to live without having their homes surrounded by new settlements.
The struggle will go on as long as the West gives Isreal unquestioned support and puts the road map on the back burner.



The entire world doesnt dismiss everything etc etc. More silly hyperbole.
What America has been trying to do for decades? Yes, like giving tacit acceptance for Isreali actions.
'Sit back and wait for Jews to be blamed for everything in the ME', more silly hyperbole.
Ah the bored 'ones who matter', like you I assume. Actually you dont matter as youve always given unquestioning acceptance of what youve been told and thats why youre so one sided.
Youll never be found questioning your politicians because most of them agree with you, nor will you ever be on a protest march, nor will you ever read a book that doesnt agree with your preconceived notions.

That glass house of yours will need some repair before winter comes in. Your allegiance to the neo con agenda/ analysis has you confused about how many billions of people across the world care about a peaceful Israeli/Palestinian solution other than America, Israel, and the few Palestinians that aren't caught up in the "religious feud" Arabs elsewhere have labeled it.