Dreaming of Zion

Trajan Octavian Titus · 08-17-07, 10:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Volker

If you talk about this plan which Clinton and Barak presented at Camp David II, Mr. Arafat was correct in rejecting it. It did not include the points you mentioned and it was not even worth to be discussed.

Sir that is a lie, everything I mentioned was part of the plan offered at Camp David the assertions that they were not is Palestinian propaganda, but don't take my word for it let's ask someone who was there:

Quote:

Dennis Ross on the “Camp David myths” of the anti-Israel crowd

April 25, 2002

ARAFAT TURNED IT ALL DOWN
[Note by Tom Gross]

This is the transcript from this week's interview on American TV with Dennis Ross, the senior Middle East advisor to President Clinton, in which he dispels once and for all the Palestinian propaganda regularly parroted as fact in the European and some parts of the U.S. media that Bill Clinton and Ehud Barak offered Arafat non-contiguous territory in the West Bank at the Camp David and Taba talks.

Ross confirms that Barak offered Arafat all of Gaza, a net of 97 percent of the West Bank, 2 percent of pre-1967 Israel, and a capital in east Jerusalem. Ross says "those who say there were cantons, this is completely untrue. [The territory offered in the West Bank] was contiguous."

Ross says Arafat was offered a "Right of Return" for refugees to the nascent Palestinian state and $30 Billion fund to compensate refugees, and Arafat turned it all down, against the pleadings of his own Palestinian advisors.
-- Tom Gross

Quote:

DENNIS ROSS: WHAT REALLY HAPPENED AT CAMP DAVID AND BEYOND

A summary by Dennis Ross of what was offered and what took place at the Camp David and Taba negotiations:

1. Yasser Arafat presented no ideas at Camp David.

2. The Taba talks would have happened in late September if not for the outbreak of violence. Arafat knew the US was ready to make a proposal and thus promised to control the violence, but didn't. (I think he was hoping that he could leverage the violence into political gain.)

3. All of Gaza and a net of 97% of the West Bank were offered at Taba.

4. The West Bank area offered was contiguous, not "cantons".

5. The Jordan valley would be under Israeli patrol for only 6 years.

6. The Palestinians were offered a capital in eastern Jerusalem.

7. There would be a "Right of Return" to the nascent Palestinian state.

8. A $30 Billion fund to compensate refugees would be set up.

9. Taba was rushed due to Clinton's, not Barak's, end of term.

10. Members of the PA delegation thought Taba was the best they could hope to get and encouraged Arafat to accept it.

11. Arafat accepted everything he was given at Taba, but rejected everything he was supposed to give.

12. Arafat scuttled the Camp David offer. Arafat scuttled the Taba offer. Arafat scuttled the Mitchell plan. Arafat scuttled the Tenet plan. Arafat scuttled the Zinni plan.

Mideast Dispatch Archive: Dennis Ross on the “Camp David myths” of the anti-Israel crowd

Even Saudi prince Bandar called Arafat's rejection of the proposal a "crime."

Gardener · 08-17-07, 10:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jenin

'Final Solution', final 'settlement', call it however you want. The terrorist zionists carry nukes and threaten world peace. They stole the land through ethnic cleansing. They wiped palestine off the map, and now they cry victim. Zionism is racism. You are misguided through their disinformation, as is the american corporate media. Or maybe you carry a hidden agenda. I dont know.

You got me there, Jenin,as I do have a hidden agenda. It's called sanity.

As well as the rejection of hateful filth.

Volker · 08-17-07, 10:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trajan Octavian Titus

Sir that is a lie, everything I mentioned was part of the plan offered at Camp David the assertions that they were not is Palestinian propaganda, but don't take my word for it let's ask someone who was there:

Even Saudi prince Bandar called Arafat's rejection of the proposal a "crime."

So, Dennis Ross is the senior Middle East advisor to President Clinton?
Then he is as credible as Clinton or Barak themselves, which means not credible.

He represents one side.

MSgt · 08-17-07, 11:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jenin

My thoughts on what I see becoming of the Bantustans of Palestine and their beaten down yet resilient (in spirit for the very least) people.

The death of an Icon was a blessing and a curse. It was a blessing because Arafat died and the voice of the people began to be heard. It was a curse because the death of the man who held the ramshackle government allowed for the meticulously planned conspiracy against the Palestinian nation to take effect. Olmert has been planning this since his earliest days as Jabotinsky's student. The death of Rabin was no accident, as was the death of Arafat. They are both leaders allowed to power under directors for a larger scheme. When they diverged from the roles set for them, they were eventually exterminated. Rabin proposed a two state solution that would have halted Zion's plans for a 'final solution'. The transfer of the Palestinian natives needed to be orchestrated under a cover of instability, and Rabin offered the Palestinians a state in peace with its mighty subjugator. And so Peres and Olmert took care of him. Sharon was removed when he withdrew from Gaza. His record of barbarism was not enough to redeem him. And Arafat was taken care of by Dahlan and Mofaz and the Zionist masters above them. The turquoise steel must rise above the humble stone dwellings of the natives. They are a problem that needs to be taken care of. Plan Dalet and Ben-Gurion could not complete the mission and vision of Jabotinsky, and so they will try at it again today.

Zion has traversed a long path. The mighty Egyptians have been sidelined and the generous Jordan has been quieted. They starved them then fed them and kept them dependent. And now that Arafat had finally been removed...they moved forward. The daily bombardments and devastations reinvigorated the façade of militancy called Hamas. The elections brought them to power, and the Dahlan/Abbas puppets were made to watch. Then they armed them. The Gaza warlord Dahlan was given his guns for the duties he fulfilled before then. He marched into Gaza and pushed in to the fight, happily obliging under assurance of support from the empire of Zion. And so they played them off against each other and watched the expected outcomes. The fury of Islam swallowed the Fatah and evicted the traitors from the lands of the Gaza. Hamas played as it was expected. They had been starved and sucker punched and withheld their 'martyrdom' operations in to the hearts of turquoise steel in Telaviv. They knew they would not allow Zion to use that excuse but they would not sit quiet as the scheming Dahlan overran the lands 'liberated' by Jihad. And what a Jihad is had been. A quarter century of back breaking grassroots garbage collecting, healthcare, street kitchens, and underground guerilla training. They sacrificed more than Arafat's Fatah could ever dream of in their hay days of Beirut and press conferences.

Olmert is smiling. Abbas will have a heart attack. The wall is near completion... Jabotinsky's vision is almost realized. One final war, one final push. For an empire that has always screamed "they want to push us in the sea"...they have done remarkably well to push the Palestinians into the desert. Countless native homes have been demolished, settlements expanded, and the Zionist fort consolidated. Now they eye the Persians...but their goal is still the same. I fear that the final days of the Palestinian nation are coming soon. The Islamic resistance is busy digging meager tunnels to the Sinai for food and some more guns. This will not stop the military giant. The world will watch with indifference as Zion fulfils its plans. There will be millions like myself who will see through their façade.

An Islamist Radical couldn't have said it any better.....

"..assurance of support from the empire of Zion.."

"..'liberated' by Jihad. And what a Jihad is had been..."

"...The Islamic resistance..."

Bravo.

However, I just want to know when does the Western world get to 'liberate' Christian lands from the Islamic occupation? According to my history, most of the whole region belonged to Chrisitians and to Persians before that, well before the Islamic Sunni jumped into the game and started shouting..."mine!" Isn't it funny how originally "jihad" meant the expansion of Islam to the world and over the course of history it has turned into a defensive term for the retaliations and defenses of the West and for pretty much anything that pisses off Muslims?

Want peace in the Middle East? Stop blowing **** up, stop slaughtering each other, and stop living in the past. You'd be amazed how civilized the world would be.

Jenin · 08-17-07, 11:36 AM

Tarjan,

I recognize you are an intelligent debater, and an ardent one at that... however I have also come to notice you will not recognize your own faulty assessments when engaged in debate...

I am willing to debate you, respectfully, and document my refutations ...
I pose this important question to you...
If I prove, with hard facts, your faulty assessments... will you be honest with yourself and the forum and concede the truth?

I await your answer and I am prepared to spend my time debating you in sincerity and honesty if you agree....

Gardener,

I pose the same to you. Instead of consistently accusing me of hatespeech, doublespeak...... consider committing a thoughtcrime, It just might free your self imposed allegiance to big brother and the inner party, my Orwellian intellectual.

MSgt · 08-17-07, 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jenin

The terrorist zionists carry nukes and threaten world peace. They stole the land through ethnic cleansing.

Why? Because they parade their "nuclear missiles" in parades like the Soviet Union? Because they invade Afghanistan out of sheer imperialism like the Soviet Union? Because they invade Iran and Kuwait like Iraq? Because they boast on the annihilation of Muslim countries to the cheers of countless millions of Jews around the world?

You don't see the tragically ironic thing about a Muslim declaring that the little tiny state of Israel is a "threat to WORLD peace?" Your people are slaughtering each other in the streets of Iraq and seem to demand a brutal over lord just to behave. Your people are slaughtering their own Radicals in Lebanon. Your people are suppressing religion in Saudi Arabia and before America got involved, Afghanistan. Your region spawns international terror organizations that expressly seek high profile civilian targets in the West in various countries for their "insults" to Islam. And of course, this is just recently. Historically, it has been your people exploding out of your little area into every one else's yard.

Volker · 08-17-07, 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GySgt

An Islamist Radical couldn't have said it any better.....

"..assurance of support from the empire of Zion.."

"..'liberated' by Jihad. And what a Jihad is had been..."

"...The Islamic resistance..."

An Islamist Radical would probably write liberated by Jihad, not 'liberated' by Jihad.

Trajan Octavian Titus · 08-17-07, 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Volker

So, Dennis Ross is the senior Middle East advisor to President Clinton?
Then he is as credible as Clinton or Barak themselves, which means not credible.

He represents one side.

Ross was ****ing there, he is far more qualified to speak on the subject then you, ofcourse you have some evidence that he is lying or perhaps some sort of motivation for him to lie? What the hell does he have to gain by lying? Are you asserting that Clinton didn't want to broker a peace deal before he left office thus insuring his legacy, are you asserting that if it was the Israelis fault that he would lie to protect those who thwarted his legacy?

My god man even Prince Bandar of Saudi Arabia said that Arafat's refusal of the deal was a crime against the Palestinians and that Arafat's account was a lie, are you asserting that Bandar who was also intimately involved in the affair is lying too? So I take it that in your warped view everyone involved even third parties like the U.S. and Saudi Arabia who have nothing to gain by lying about the events or the proposal are lying and only Yasser Arafat and the Palestinians who have broken every agreement they have entered into are telling the truth? Wake the hell up man.

MSgt · 08-17-07, 12:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Volker

An Islamist Radical would probably write liberated by Jihad, not 'liberated' by Jihad.

Don't let it fool ya. It is written as if it is a word used by "others" but he firmly believes it.

Trajan Octavian Titus · 08-17-07, 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jenin

Tarjan,

I recognize you are an intelligent debater, and an ardent one at that... however I have also come to notice you will not recognize your own faulty assessments when engaged in debate...

I am willing to debate you, respectfully, and document my refutations ...
I pose this important question to you...
If I prove, with hard facts, your faulty assessments... will you be honest with yourself and the forum and concede the truth?

I await your answer and I am prepared to spend my time debating you in sincerity and honesty if you agree....

Go for it partner, even Prince freaking Bandar of Saudi Arabia has said that Arafat's accounts are not truthful and that his rejection of the proposal was a crime against the Palestinian people the only people who still don't concede the undeniable facts presented by Ross who has no motive what so ever to lie for the Israelis and who was there are the western Arafat apologists and Palestinian propagandists.

08-17-07, 11:36 AM	#15
Jenin Educator Join Date: Sep 2005 Last Seen: 01-26-10 11:55 PM Location: In my mind Posts: 684 Thanks: 219 Thanked 104 Times in 74 Posts Lean: Independent Gender:	Re: Dreaming of Zion Tarjan, I recognize you are an intelligent debater, and an ardent one at that... however I have also come to notice you will not recognize your own faulty assessments when engaged in debate... I am willing to debate you, respectfully, and document my refutations ... I pose this important question to you... If I prove, with hard facts, your faulty assessments... will you be honest with yourself and the forum and concede the truth? I await your answer and I am prepared to spend my time debating you in sincerity and honesty if you agree.... Gardener, I pose the same to you. Instead of consistently accusing me of hatespeech, doublespeak...... consider committing a thoughtcrime, It just might free your self imposed allegiance to big brother and the inner party, my Orwellian intellectual.
	__________________ "A child becomes a man when he knows what came before him" -- Anonymous "Conquerors, my son, consider as true history only what they themselves have fabricated" http://users.ox.ac.uk/~ssfc0005/The%...ut%201948.html

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