MSgt

My mentioning of Christian "ownership" was an argument to show how rediculous the claim is that the land belongs to Islam, a religion that came 600 years later. Your argument of "indigenous" people merely masks what you have made clear in the past which is the argument of radicals throughout the region........

I, in no way, discuss these matters from the Christian's or Bible's stand point. No mention of God almighty who will come back and embrace the Jewish nation of Israel, no mention of Jesus Christ as the Son of God, etc.


You do this to yourself. See above.

You mean with all the financial support America and so many other nations (and a little from the Arab ones) have given Palesintians, they haven't managed to create a society that isn't bent on revenge, hatred, and militant behaviors? I don't buy the fact that Palestinians aren't responsible for themselves. They chose to adhere to German sentiments, thereby giving the Jewish argument solid ground. They chose to align themselves with the Islamic warriors who boasted to come to their rescue, but really only saw the commencement of the Crusades and a Jewish nation in their lands. They chose to align with the Soviet union during the Cold War. They chose to mire their society into a society that could not be trusted by Israelis and have forced Isrealis to take measures to defend themselves year after year and decade after decade. The minute Palestinians stop behaving as if there has been a travesty against Islam and honestly begin lobbying for what occurred in 1948, they will start seeing a difference. However, as we have seen enough times, every time any kind of peace talks begin to surface, Arab and Shia Islamists, with the aid of Palestinian Islamists manage to wreck it all. I have said it before...The majority of palesintians are victims of their culture and their own people.

You are the one trying to declare Israel as the WORLD threat. I believe this very much has to do with your indoctrination in the Middle East and the irresponsible garbage that comes out of your media. But given the aggressive nature of Islam from the Arab peninsula through the rest of the region into Africa, southern Europe, eastern Asia and eventually even as far as Poland, I would say that Islam would be that WORLD threat. 13 centuries of rampaging through other people's nations doesn't just go away simply because imperialism and capitalism came along and made it harder to conquer.

Your desperate game will not work Jenin. Bush is not a terrorist. An abortion clinic bomber is a terrorist. This is one more sentiment that is stereotypical of the Muslim world towards tthe West. Muslims pretend that they do not understand, but they very well do. Most Muslims are not fundamentalists, and most fundamentalists are not terrorists, but most present-day terrorists are Mulsims and proudly identify themselves as such. Understandably, Muslims complain when the media speak of terrorist movements and actions as "Islamic" and ask why media do not similarly identify Irish and Basque terrorists and terrorism as "Christian." The answer is simple and obvious - they do not describe themselves as such. This complaint is always directed towards those who report the news or repeat it, but this is wrong. The Muslim complaint should be on those who make the news. Bin Ladden and his followers may not represent Islam, and many of their statements and their actions directly contradict basic Islamic principles and teachings, but they do arise from within Muslim civilization, just as Hitler and the Nazis arose from wothin Christendom. The difference is that Hitler was seen as a villian and the Christian world proved it by destroying him. Abortion clinic bombers are tried and convicted by fellow Christians. Where are the arrest warents for Hezbollah, Al-Queda, and so on? Where are the "true" Islamic armies from Muslim nations during this crisis against the Tali-Ban in Afghanistan and Pakistan? Islamic terrorists are considered "Islamic" because they prefess to be Islamic fighting for Islam and no Muslim in the Middle East is doing anything of substance to counter their statements.

Why?

Yes you do. Islam is based on the root prescription that it is a community and a civilization rather than just a religion. The founder of Christianity bade his followers "render unto Ceasar the things which are Ceasar's and unto God the things which are God's." There was no Christian empire or civiliation until Constantine, Ceasar himself, became a Christian and transformed the civilization. The founder of Islam was his own Constantine, and founded his own state and empire from the very beginning. Today, there is no such thing as a "Chrisitian" country in the West. There is only Western countries with Christians in them (which are colorfully referred to as the "Land of the Unbelievers" or "House of War." Our seperation of church and state (something that has been mentioned as blashpemy enough times) establish this quite clearly. This is not the case for Islam. Many Muslims see their Islamic world as a community divided by borders and without a caliphate.

While you deal in terms that mask the true mission within Islam, Sunni and Shia leaders are defining territories as Sunni controlled or Shia controlled. Sistani has been quite impressive with his position as as Hezbollah, which followed Sistani's sentiments to ensure a sense of domination. The House of Saud looked away from Saddam's crimes, not because they loved him, but because he was a Sunni that ensured dominace. The Tali-ban ensured dominace. In between was the contained Shia Iran.

You know exactly what I'm talking about. The preachings of Robertson will not envoke a public following or a fundamental base that will breed countless savages bent on serving God. The preachinigs of Islamic teachings may be a falsehood of the other sect, but the people eat it up. Proof is in the history. The Shia revolution that tried to lead into an Islamic Revolution and nurtured Hezbollah and the Sunni Wahhibism that nurtured the Tali-Ban and Al-Queda came from Islamic teachers, whome you claim are as insignificant as Robertson or Swaggert in America.

It's hard to have an actual agenda on an Internet site unless we are talking about a planned movement. But your constant references to fundamental Islamic themes combined with this game that you are completely in the dark in regards to your own region's troubles, which is common sense among the expert material written by Christians, Jews, Muslims, and heathens alike, suggests that you have a personal agenda to cater to a Radical's belief in Islam.

He was. There have been several attempts to bring about a Pan-Arab state by many well known Arab leaders that ultimately resulted in failure. Two later attempts were conducted by Qaddafi; these were the Federation of Arab Republics and the Arab Islamic Republic. Both failed before beginning. But Quddafi was popular.

I'm beginning to think that I actually do know more about your region that you do.

Not the same thing at all and you know it.

This is total BS and you're not going to get away with it. Saddam was Sunni and that is all that mattererd to fellow Sunni states (and this included Kuwait until they stopped paying protection money to them against Iran.) Sunni religious groups didn't care to make trouble for Saddam Hussein. And he did not ban Ashoura for its bloody practices. He banned it because he did not want the Shia on parade in his country. Ashoura underscores Shia distinctiveness and often draws Sunni opprobrium. The Sunni reject this day, because of the long history of bigotry involved and for what it means to the Shia. Many Sunni Muslims see this day as complete blasphemy. Along with this bannishment in Iraq came the approval of the House of Saud, Syria, and Jordan. The Al-Anbar Province has always been home to fundamentals that came from schools in Jordan and Syria. Saddam merely reminded them of who was in charge. But these fundsamentalists only rose up after the Sunni lost their dominance over Baghdad and Karbala. If Arabia is the most symbolic location in the world of Islam, Baghdad, the seat of the caliphate for half a millennium and the scene of some of the most glorious chapters in Islamic history, is the second.

America supported his fight against Iran. Not his treatment of his people. The responsibility goes right back to Muslims.

America only got involved after Muslmis started slaughtering Muslims. This had everything to do with what our role in the region has been all along - "Stability." What they did to each other was a matter for Muslims for which America is unfairly chastized. Hell, the overwhelming arms support during this period was China, the Soviet Union, and France (quite the trio).

It's not a gross generalization. This was very much a Sunni/Shia war. It doesn't matter what Saddam's intentions were. Khomeini was very clear. Sunni governments from around the region were very clear. The labeling of both countries resorted to the names "Sunni" and "Shia" often enough. And today, we see a distinct seperation within Iraq. And what do you know..."Sunni" and "Shia" are still used. Given the regional sentiment, one could argue that we are in the beginnings of the Iran/Iraq war part II - only moved 100 miles to the west.

__________________

MSgt
Semper Fidelis
USMC

Trajan Octavian Titus

A) They considered themselves Arabs.

B) The lands partitioned to the Jews had a higher Jewish population than Muslim Population.

C) The Muslims were offered all of the Mandate East of the Jordan river and 43% of the land to the west, that still wasn't enough for them, they wanted it all.

Because 1) they are their fellow Arabs, and 2) the same reason why everyone integrates refugees into their society; furthermore, Israel adobted the Jewish refugees the were expelled from all over the Arab world the Arab world should do the same for the Muslim refugees.

Has Hamas changed their charter? Was Fatah elected as the majority party? It is clear where the Palestinian people stand and it's not for peaceful coexistence.


There were only a total of 1/2 a million Jews vs. the combined force of 5 powerful Arab states.

lmfao, the Israelis pulled out of all of Gaza and most of the W. Bank and they were rewarded with rockets. Sorry but Israel offered 97% of the W. Bank, all of Gaza, a capital in East Jerusalem, and sovereignty over the temple mount.


Precisely and we didn't give any of those things to them, that would be the French and the German companies like Karl Kolb who transported an entire WMD production facility in the guise of a chemical production plant.

lol, we didn't aid their weapons program in any way and yet you still blame the U.S., what a freaking joke of an argument.

No not my argument at all: they kill, convert, or subjugate Christian lands = my how terrible, the Christians reclaim those lands = just war.

CaptainCourtesy

Jenin, you are consistently using the term 'Zionist' like in these examples:

Please tell us what you mean when you are using this term, as you seem to be using it both incorrectly and inappropriately.

Also, you have still not responded to my challenge that your claim that Zionism is racism is not only false, but is racism in and of itself.

__________________
"Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

====||:-D

Trajan Octavian Titus

It's newspeak for Jews, in order to make anti-semetic rhetoric more palatable to the left.

Simon W. Moon

Can you present textual evidence for your accusation being the case here?

Or is this merely plutonium in the well?

AFAIK,
Even though many Israelis are Jewish, not all Jews are Israeli therefore
Israelis ≠ Jews

Even though many Jews are "Zionists", not all "Zionists" are Jews and not all Jews are "Zionists" therefore
Zionists ≠ Jews

__________________
"The barbarous custom of having men beaten who are suspected of having important secrets to reveal must be abolished. It has always been recognized that this way of interrogating men, by putting them to torture, produces nothing worthwhile."
- Napoleon Bonaparte to Berthier 11 Nov 1798 Napoleon on the Art of War

Iriemon

"Zionism is an international political movement that supports a homeland for the Jewish people in the Land of Israel. Formally organized in the late 19th century, the movement was successful in establishing the State of Israel in 1948, as the world's first and only modern Jewish State."

Zionism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Citicism of zionism would anti-Jewish only if the nation of Israel is equivalent with Judeasm.

Is it?

Jenin

Zionism has played one of the most drastic roles in affecting the lives of every Palestinian. It is an ideology based on the notion of establishing and securing a homeland for the all jews wherever they are, regardless of their race. It is an ideology and a movement today that maintains an expansionist project on Palestinian land, aiming to secure a majority jewish population and unilateral annexation. This was achieved in the past through ethnic cleansing of Palestinians, re population of their homes and theft of their property. Today, the Zionist project is underway in the west bank through the construction/expansion of settlements, the confiscation wall, and the buerocratic/military deportation of palestinian natives. House demolitions, land expropriation are other methods used for ethnic cleansing. The goal of zionism is the maximization of the number of jews in lands zionists plan to annex while minimizing the number of palestinian natives. It is an ideology based on racism.

Not all jews or Israelis are zionist. And most Israelis are not zionist expansionists. The problem is that the leadership, the military, and the intelligence continue this project and have not ceased since Israel's creation.

I think it is the best terminology I can use to describe the current and historical dynamics.



I could list hundreds of historical examples and quotes, but for the purpose of answering your question, this summarizes the the racist objective of zionism.

__________________
"A child becomes a man when he knows what came before him" -- Anonymous
"Conquerors, my son, consider as true history only what they themselves have fabricated"
http://users.ox.ac.uk/~ssfc0005/The%...ut%201948.html

Jenin

sThat is a horribly faulty argument. Palestinians, recognized as such a people by everyone, lived on that land and fought turks, Brits, and european zionists from control of their land. Their land was divided and 55% of it was given to a majority of recently arrived european immigrants, who went about forcibly evicting palestinians from their lands, cultimating in the nakba, the disaster or palestinian diaspora of 1948.



In fact, the majority of the arab ummah believe the official story. I have to sit with my "salafist" cousins and explain to them how WTC building collapsed at freefall speed due to a detonation of explosives. No other steel structures in the world have collapsed in freefall speed in the fictitious manner and explanation given by the government.



God. Quit being ignorant. Characterizing the Darfur war as 'Arabs' versus 'Africans' obscures the reality. Darfur's Arabs are black, indigenous, African and Muslim - just like Darfur's non-Arabs, who hail from the Fur, Masalit, Zaghawa and a dozen smaller tribes.

Cut this propaganda out. It is ridiculous and false. This is about Palestinians under occupation since 1920 demanding they be made equals on their own homeland and demanding the refugees ethnically cleansed and their descendants return to their homeland.



This is exactly what the Israelis want to happen. But the palestinians refugees want to return to their homelands. They want to return to their homelands. They were made refugees by Israel, which denied them return after the end of their takeover. Their homes were given to eurpean immigrants as the case in Jaffa, Haifa, Jerusalem. Their lands were declared 'absentee' property and taken by the Israelis. They were denied return. They were expelled by force and terror. This is fact.


Spare me this bigorty.


Zionist propaganda. Palestinians want to return to the homes they were expelled from. They want the territories occupied in 1967 to become their state, or better yet, that they be made citizens.


Pro-Pa-Ganda! The Israelis got the latests and best automatic and semiautomatic weaponry available from Czechoslovakia. They had tanks and planes. They were the best equipped force, and their army was equal in number to the ragtag arab 'rescue army'. Cut the 5 to 1 lies.


800000 palestinians were expelled and denied return. Their property given to jewish immigrants. The remaining 125,000 were put under martial law till the 60s, then huge amounts of their lands were taken in the 70s. They were made citizens because they are a harmless minority. You have european immigrant zionists like lieberman trying to get rid of even them today. They are the poorest and suffer from discrimination.


You said muslim countries kill homos. I said you are generalizing and lying. I was right. You were wrong. Out of 50 majority muslim countries, you found 3 examples. You have proven yourself wrong. Thank you.


Ok.

Ok. whatever. Im tired of this rhetoric.

I have provided you with truth and facts. I have asked you, in the case of palestine, to document you allegations and you couldnt. I have documented the opposite.

They defeated the imperial byzantine army. Then proceeded to allow religious freedom for jews and lowered taxes. Facts.

__________________
"A child becomes a man when he knows what came before him" -- Anonymous
"Conquerors, my son, consider as true history only what they themselves have fabricated"
http://users.ox.ac.uk/~ssfc0005/The%...ut%201948.html

cherokee

Are you talking about the same Mohammad that married a 6 year old girl then had sex with her when she turned 9? Sorry but no matter how you look at it or how you try to paint it with the brush "Oh It was the customs of the day"
Mohammad was a child molesting pedophile. Its not hate speech, its just the plain truth thats *IS* back up by Isamic writings...


Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Book 62:
Compendium of Muslim Texts[/url]

Volume 7, Book 62, Number 65:
Narrated 'Aisha:
that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old. Hisham said: I have been informed that 'Aisha remained with the Prophet for nine years (i.e. till his death)." what you know of the Quran (by heart)'


Volume 7, Book 62, Number 88:
Narrated 'Ursa:
The Prophet wrote the (marriage contract) with 'Aisha while she was six years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old and she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death).


Volume 5, Book 58, Number 234:

Narrated Aisha:

The Prophet engaged me when I was a girl of six (years). We went to Medina and stayed at the home of Bani-al-Harith bin Khazraj. Then I got ill and my hair fell down. Later on my hair grew (again) and my mother, Um Ruman, came to me while I was playing in a swing with some of my girl friends. She called me, and I went to her, not knowing what she wanted to do to me. She caught me by the hand and made me stand at the door of the house. I was breathless then, and when my breathing became Allright, she took some water and rubbed my face and head with it. Then she took me into the house. There in the house I saw some Ansari women who said, "Best wishes and Allah's Blessing and a good luck." Then she entrusted me to them and they prepared me (for the marriage). Unexpectedly Allah's Apostle came to me in the forenoon and my mother handed me over to him, and at that time I was a girl of nine years of age.

USC-MSA]USC-MSA Compendium of Muslim Texts

Jenin

Where have I made the assertion that these lands are muslim lands? You incessantly distort my argument. I dont speak hindi, I speak english. My argument is as applicable to Muslim Palestinians as it is to Christian Palestinians. They are natives, they are denied statehood. They were expelled, the are denied return. This has been the case before the PLO, the Hamas, and the "terrorism". Hamas was formed after a continued, relentless Israeli occupation and settlement of the Palestinian territories lasting 2 decades. Hizbullah, was formed to confront Israeli occupation of southern lebanon,which lasted 20 years.


You have repeatedly exclaimed that middle eastern nations are christian lands that were conquered by muslims. I exposed the flaw in your argument, which was the fact that the Byzentines were european occupiers of semitic land.


Touche. You got me here. I indeed implied what you accused me of in this particular quote from nearly a year ago. I concede my fault here.

You can easily make this argument....but you are simply wrong. One: There was no congenital conflict between Muslim jew or christian before the zionist occupation of palestine. Two: Revenge, Hatred, and militant behavior is a reaction to the grotesquely prolonged subjugation of these people at the hands of the occupation.

There is no excuse what so ever for what happened to the palestinians and for the systematic destruction of any feasible hope of a viable state at the hands of the zionist project on the ground.



I have answered you three times already on the reasons why I believe so. You have not refuted my evidence, nor argued against it.

Proud to say that the majority of my 'indoctrination' occurred in the good old U.S of A at our fine public madrasas. system.

Jigguh please! Enough can be said about this garbage coming out of corporate american media to cast a great shadow over aljazeera's garbage.

Hey Sarge, you are forgetting a very important bit of information here. The europeans conquered the middle east and ethnically cleansed it long before the arabs under the banner of Islam came to free it from this european occupation.

Al-Andalus, beautiful Cordova, and the free Jewish and chrstian philosophers, artisians, merchants, doctors, engineers, and poets sure saw the black days of spanish reconquesta as the threat to their peace.



Bush is a terrorist.

That too.


Yes. Most Muslims (and a great deal of non-muslims) believe, rightfully that Bush is a terrorist.

No, you're the one that doesn't understand.

I guarantee you it will be one hell of a close count if we were to actually count the terrorists one by one. This is a generalization based on your "Indoctrination" on who and what is a terrorist and what isnt. As bush says, "Youre with us or with the terrorists"


As christians, or as terrorists? They are terrorists, because you say they are. The US military, Israeli military, arab dictators, Bush, and the neocon planners are not terrorists, because you say they are not. Because the media that has 'indoctrinated' you says they are not.

I agree. I would also hope the media is not full of garbage though.
Thanks for admitting that.

I greatly admire and pay tribute to the heroes who did that. I would have to say I disagree with their tactics in utilizing nukes on the japs however.

If you cant tell the difference between the Hizb and Al-Qaeda then what the hell are we doing having a debate?

Where are the arrest warrants for Al-Qaeda? ARE YOU INSANE? Al-Qaeda is blacklisted from every country on the face of this earth. Are you implying arab nations do not very agressively pursue the Base? because they do. Every young arab picked up at night for growing a beard and interrogated till dawn by his respective american trained secret police will answer your ridiculous question.

I know that dozens of Muslim nations have volunteered assistance to the coalition in afghanistan. Military, Intelligence, and financial.

That is bull****. Ever heard of the Amman message? Of the hundreds of Islamic conferences and fatwas against terror? The daily commercials on TV attacking the Al-Qaeda and Sectarian murderers? The almost daily public debates on al-jazeera? The millions upon millions in contributions throughout mosques to victims of terror? The demonstrations? Whatabout the demonstrations by the thousands in palestine against the fatah-hamas bloodshed. Or the demonstrations in Amman against the sectarian bloodshed and terrorists who commit it in Iraq? The demonstrations against Zaraqwi's bombings? The Fatwas, the comercials, the daily sermons condemning this crap? Nothing of substance? I beg to differ.



Out of curiosity, can you give me a link online to the ancient aramaic text of the passage you just cited? I would like to read it.

Big difference, I beg to differ. Constantine ordered the complete erradication of evey non-chrstian. Muhammad didnt. He ordered coexistence with chrstians and jews.

He was a leader no doubt. I doubt if the prophet Muhammad had effective rule outside of mecca and medina. The arab empire would come about within 100 years after his death. Islam never got past the arabian penninsula during his lifetime.


Radicals would disagree with you. "Judeo-Christian Nation" is how I often hear america being described by evangelist fundementalists.

Or goyim or gentiles, according to our jewish cousins.

I agree here. Seperation of church and state is the constitutional policy.

True.


Have I asserted otherwise?

Hizbullah is a lebanese organization. They follow the interest of their represented demographic in lebanon.

And why did regan and the neocons look away?

__________________
"A child becomes a man when he knows what came before him" -- Anonymous
"Conquerors, my son, consider as true history only what they themselves have fabricated"
http://users.ox.ac.uk/~ssfc0005/The%...ut%201948.html